5 ms·

Yeah pretty much. And no one should be against this. This is allowing people to be who they want to be instead of being limited by who they are... It is no diff

Yeah pretty much. And no one should be against this. This is allowing people to be who they want to be instead of being limited by who they are... It is no different than someone getting plastic surgery to change their appearance... which I guess some people still despise but I don't see it any differently from someone who is transgender and wants to get an operation and drugs to make them more like their chosen gender.

flagfeedingusa1 7y ago
Why can't people just learn to be happy with who they are? Perhaps the truly toxic individuals are the ones telling everyone they should indeed undergo hormone replacement therapy, invasive surgeries and other life changing decisions. Maybe people need to actually accept who they are and by extension what they look like to actually find inner peace, and chopping off your genitals may not be the way to do that.
sdegutis 7y ago
"Vanity of vanities, all is vanity." The words vanity and vain come from the Latin word for empty, or without substance or value. When we alter our appearance, it's because we put value or merit in something that inherently has no merit. We all want a reason to hold our head up high. Some look for it in athletics, others in academia, others in financial success. This woman looked for it by faking her physical appearance. But the best reason is something we can't merit: we are made in the image and likeness of God. We are all little images of God, and if we truly understand that we have inherent dignity, then nobody can take that from us, no matter how poor or ugly or uneducated we are. And then we won't feel the need to put ourselves high up. And we won't feel the need to put others below us. We'll want others to know their own dignity, so they might stand tall with us!
- devoply 7y ago
  > we are made in the image and likeness of God. We are all little images of God, and if we truly understand that we have inherent dignity, then nobody can take that from us, no matter how poor or ugly or uneducated we are. That's pretty easy when you invent a God. Rhetorical non-sense aside, fact is that appearance matters to people a lot... as does age. Making up rhetoric does not fix any of this, and only makes people's biases more subconscious. The best way to overcome their biases is technology, rather than words... as you can not subvert what you are seeing, as seeing is believing, where can easily subvert what you claim you believe.
  - sdegutis 7y ago
    > fact is that appearance matters to people a lot Appearance matters even taking God into account. How we dress is a silent way of communicating to others what we value, what our business is, what kind of extra dignities we have, and how we think of others. If for no good reason, the President went to the store in either his pajamas or renaissance clothing at 2pm on a Wednesday, he wouldn't be conveying his dignity as leader of a whole nation, he wouldn't be properly communicating his business there, he would be communicating his values, and he would be setting an example and a precedent.
    - pjc50 7y ago
      I have some bad news for you about the Presidential Twitter feed.
      - sdegutis 7y ago
        The more Fulton Sheen shows I watch, the more I realize that Idiocracy doesn't have to continue to become a documentary. But that's going to require a moral change, especially among our youth. That's not the main reason I study morality and train my children in it, but if more parents do likewise, we'll have a very real chance of turning the country around. Unfortunately, most adults I've met believe the same thing I was taught growing up: there are no absolute truths or absolute morals, you have to come up with them yourself, etc. That's how you get Trump for President.
        pjc50 7y ago
        Trump is extremely popular among the people who do believe in an absolute morality, the evangelicals.
- inscionent 7y ago
  One person's vanity is another's identity. Dressing up like Bronie can be just a fulfilling as singing a hymn. If you want everyone to stand tall with you, try meeting them where they are instead of pushing your world view as supreme.
  - sdegutis 7y ago
    Our outward appearance can and do represent what values we identify with. But saying "I'm worthy because I am beautiful" is shallow, which is just another way of saying empty, vain, and without substance. Besides, why would someone want their worth to come from beauty, which is so fleeting? True and lasting beauty is in virtue, even non-religious people admire the sacrifices of soldiers for the sake of freedom, or the sacrifices of Gandhi for peace. These are truly beautiful. Physical beauty is empty and devoid of merit. But like anything else we have, our physical height, our intelligence, our gift for music, our gift for software, it can be put to good use in the selfless service of others, at which point it becomes truly beautiful.
    - xelxebar 7y ago
      > Physical beauty is empty and devoid of merit. I get where you're coming from, as my personal values have this element in them as well. I'm probably heavily influenced by my Protestant upbringing, which also gives me the moral that "laying moral judgement on others is a vanity." That said, it's also interesting to look at moral themes and personal values through the lens of cultural evolution. For the vast majority of history, it's pretty much been a hard fact that one's physical appearance breaks down with age (Keanu Reaves being some Magickal exception). Therefore the "beauty is empty" moral might be seen as a distilled admonition against relying too heavily on physical appearance, since that could cause some hardship later on. Anyway, thank you for sharing. I appreciate finding other people that pursue True Beauty, whatever that may mean. The quest itself is a thing of beauty. lol
      - sdegutis 7y ago
        > laying moral judgement on others is a vanity To help form our morals, we have to judge everything. This is an integral part of turning life experience into wisdom. But this isn't the same as judging people. I cannot know what's inside the mind and heart of my neighbor, even if he does something extremely evil. So I cannot condemn him for doing evil. I can condemn the evil itself, but I cannot condemn him, which is just another way of saying that he is not salvageable. Because people can change. I recognized this even before I was a Christian. That's also why it says of Jesus: "he will not quench a smoldering wick."
- toyg 7y ago
  No need for imaginary beings to enter the picture. One just has to put value in experience and originality. When every scar and wrinkle is a sign that you have lived a bit more than others, that you have become wiser, that you have more interesting stories to tell, then it becomes easier to be proud of being older and be attracted to older people. When you value uniqueness over conformity, then it becomes easier to be proud to be (and be attracted to) less conventionally-shaped people.
  - sdegutis 7y ago
    > When you value uniqueness over conformity, then it becomes easier to be proud to be (and be attracted to) less conventionally-shaped people. This is merely a justification for self gratification through inordinate love of food and drink. There's a natural shame about being overweight, and it's unfortunate that people encourage others to push past that. Even non-religious people can see that this is unhealthy and just plain bad for us. I was about 50lbs overweight for a few years, but I never let go of the shame that it brought me, knowing it would mean giving up on my only hope of getting back to a healthy weight.
    - toyg 7y ago
      Man, I spoke of scars and wrinkles and you read "fat". In that particular paragraph you quote, I was thinking of people with asymmetrical features, or other features generally considered unattractive. Not once I considered weight. I would argue that you might be unhealthily obsessed with the subject of obesity and appearance.
      - sdegutis 7y ago
        The thread we're in is about appearance and partially about weight. And people who argue that obesity is not a problem generally use phrases like "unconventionally shaped". So I still think it was a reasonable guess at what you meant. But I agree with you that those wrinkles are battle scars, that gray hair is the potential for wisdom, and that youth is not something to hang onto as if it were virtue itself.

flagfeedingusa1 7y ago

Why can't people just learn to be happy with who they are? Perhaps the truly toxic individuals are the ones telling everyone they should indeed undergo hormone replacement therapy, invasive surgeries and other life changing decisions. Maybe people need to actually accept who they are and by extension what they look like to actually find inner peace, and chopping off your genitals may not be the way to do that.

sdegutis 7y ago

"Vanity of vanities, all is vanity." The words vanity and vain come from the Latin word for empty, or without substance or value. When we alter our appearance, it's because we put value or merit in something that inherently has no merit. We all want a reason to hold our head up high. Some look for it in athletics, others in academia, others in financial success. This woman looked for it by faking her physical appearance. But the best reason is something we can't merit: we are made in the image and likeness of God. We are all little images of God, and if we truly understand that we have inherent dignity, then nobody can take that from us, no matter how poor or ugly or uneducated we are. And then we won't feel the need to put ourselves high up. And we won't feel the need to put others below us. We'll want others to know their own dignity, so they might stand tall with us!

devoply 7y ago
> we are made in the image and likeness of God. We are all little images of God, and if we truly understand that we have inherent dignity, then nobody can take that from us, no matter how poor or ugly or uneducated we are. That's pretty easy when you invent a God. Rhetorical non-sense aside, fact is that appearance matters to people a lot... as does age. Making up rhetoric does not fix any of this, and only makes people's biases more subconscious. The best way to overcome their biases is technology, rather than words... as you can not subvert what you are seeing, as seeing is believing, where can easily subvert what you claim you believe.
- sdegutis 7y ago
  > fact is that appearance matters to people a lot Appearance matters even taking God into account. How we dress is a silent way of communicating to others what we value, what our business is, what kind of extra dignities we have, and how we think of others. If for no good reason, the President went to the store in either his pajamas or renaissance clothing at 2pm on a Wednesday, he wouldn't be conveying his dignity as leader of a whole nation, he wouldn't be properly communicating his business there, he would be communicating his values, and he would be setting an example and a precedent.
  - pjc50 7y ago
    I have some bad news for you about the Presidential Twitter feed.
    - sdegutis 7y ago
      The more Fulton Sheen shows I watch, the more I realize that Idiocracy doesn't have to continue to become a documentary. But that's going to require a moral change, especially among our youth. That's not the main reason I study morality and train my children in it, but if more parents do likewise, we'll have a very real chance of turning the country around. Unfortunately, most adults I've met believe the same thing I was taught growing up: there are no absolute truths or absolute morals, you have to come up with them yourself, etc. That's how you get Trump for President.
      - pjc50 7y ago
        Trump is extremely popular among the people who do believe in an absolute morality, the evangelicals.
inscionent 7y ago
One person's vanity is another's identity. Dressing up like Bronie can be just a fulfilling as singing a hymn. If you want everyone to stand tall with you, try meeting them where they are instead of pushing your world view as supreme.
- sdegutis 7y ago
  Our outward appearance can and do represent what values we identify with. But saying "I'm worthy because I am beautiful" is shallow, which is just another way of saying empty, vain, and without substance. Besides, why would someone want their worth to come from beauty, which is so fleeting? True and lasting beauty is in virtue, even non-religious people admire the sacrifices of soldiers for the sake of freedom, or the sacrifices of Gandhi for peace. These are truly beautiful. Physical beauty is empty and devoid of merit. But like anything else we have, our physical height, our intelligence, our gift for music, our gift for software, it can be put to good use in the selfless service of others, at which point it becomes truly beautiful.
  - xelxebar 7y ago
    > Physical beauty is empty and devoid of merit. I get where you're coming from, as my personal values have this element in them as well. I'm probably heavily influenced by my Protestant upbringing, which also gives me the moral that "laying moral judgement on others is a vanity." That said, it's also interesting to look at moral themes and personal values through the lens of cultural evolution. For the vast majority of history, it's pretty much been a hard fact that one's physical appearance breaks down with age (Keanu Reaves being some Magickal exception). Therefore the "beauty is empty" moral might be seen as a distilled admonition against relying too heavily on physical appearance, since that could cause some hardship later on. Anyway, thank you for sharing. I appreciate finding other people that pursue True Beauty, whatever that may mean. The quest itself is a thing of beauty. lol
    - sdegutis 7y ago
      > laying moral judgement on others is a vanity To help form our morals, we have to judge everything. This is an integral part of turning life experience into wisdom. But this isn't the same as judging people. I cannot know what's inside the mind and heart of my neighbor, even if he does something extremely evil. So I cannot condemn him for doing evil. I can condemn the evil itself, but I cannot condemn him, which is just another way of saying that he is not salvageable. Because people can change. I recognized this even before I was a Christian. That's also why it says of Jesus: "he will not quench a smoldering wick."
toyg 7y ago
No need for imaginary beings to enter the picture. One just has to put value in experience and originality. When every scar and wrinkle is a sign that you have lived a bit more than others, that you have become wiser, that you have more interesting stories to tell, then it becomes easier to be proud of being older and be attracted to older people. When you value uniqueness over conformity, then it becomes easier to be proud to be (and be attracted to) less conventionally-shaped people.
- sdegutis 7y ago
  > When you value uniqueness over conformity, then it becomes easier to be proud to be (and be attracted to) less conventionally-shaped people. This is merely a justification for self gratification through inordinate love of food and drink. There's a natural shame about being overweight, and it's unfortunate that people encourage others to push past that. Even non-religious people can see that this is unhealthy and just plain bad for us. I was about 50lbs overweight for a few years, but I never let go of the shame that it brought me, knowing it would mean giving up on my only hope of getting back to a healthy weight.
  - toyg 7y ago
    Man, I spoke of scars and wrinkles and you read "fat". In that particular paragraph you quote, I was thinking of people with asymmetrical features, or other features generally considered unattractive. Not once I considered weight. I would argue that you might be unhealthily obsessed with the subject of obesity and appearance.
    - sdegutis 7y ago
      The thread we're in is about appearance and partially about weight. And people who argue that obesity is not a problem generally use phrases like "unconventionally shaped". So I still think it was a reasonable guess at what you meant. But I agree with you that those wrinkles are battle scars, that gray hair is the potential for wisdom, and that youth is not something to hang onto as if it were virtue itself.