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The scenario you propose would eliminate the ability to develop apps for iOS. Are you suggesting Apple is actively trying to kill the iOS app store?

Crinus 7y ago
Why would eliminate the ability to develop apps for the iOS? You could be able to download a development environment "app" from the Mac App Store just like now. You'd be a bit more confined inside the environment itself, but there is nothing that would prevent developing applications with Apple's own tools while disallowing installing anything outside of MAS.
- throwawaycert 7y ago
  Any ability to execute arbitrary code is the ability to bypass the MAS. What's more, it's nice and efficient - iOS apps in development are compiled right to x86 machine code for the "simulator" that is little more than a thin VM. 100% of the projections I've seen about MacOS becoming a walled garden have been from people that don't actually have any real familiarity with Apple's ecosystem as developers.
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    There are all sorts of restrictions Apple could place on software compiled "unofficially" with Xcode. For example, they could automatically sign it with testing certs that automatically expire after 7 days. macOS is a more open platform because Apple has decided to leave it that way, not because the property is literally essential for development.
    - throwawaycert 7y ago
      They already require periodic resigning of self-signed side-loaded apps on iOS, it doesn't stop even relatively casual users. (That's actually the funniest part about all this, now that I think about it. While everyone is wailing and gnashing their teeth about some speculative possibility that macOS ends up locked down like iOS, Apple has been making iOS more open.)
      - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
        > it doesn't stop even relatively casual users. Huh? Is there a significant number of power users who are resigning their apps every seven days? I find this somewhat hard to believe, given just how annoying it is, combined with the three-app limit.
        throwawaycert 7y ago
        I didn't even know there was a three app limit on it. Most people don't use very many apps. But yes, quite a lot of us routinely sideload apps on non-jailbroken iOS devices.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      So how would Apple enforce code signing on code that ran on top of a VM like Java or C# or scripting languages?
      - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
        By not allowing JITs, just like on iOS.
        scarface74 7y ago
        So you really think Apple is not going to not allow the Mac to run any scripting language or program that runs on top of a VM? Do you think they are also going to take away shell access? They are also not going to allow any Electron apps?
        Wowfunhappy 7y ago
        > So you really think Apple is not going to not allow the Mac to run any scripting language or program that runs on top of a VM? No, I don't, double check which commenter you're replying to. :) I'm just arguing Apple could lock down macOS if they wanted to, without making iOS development impossible.
        throwawaycert 7y ago
        iOS allows JITs. This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're using bad or outdated second or third-hand info with no regard for the game of telephone involved in getting it to you, nor the anti-Apple zealots obfuscating the truth on its way.
        Wowfunhappy 7y ago
        Are you sure? I admittedly can't find a definitive source on this now, so perhaps the restriction is more nuanced than I realized. What I do know is: if you try to use more intensive emulators like PPSSPP on a non-Jailbroken iOS device (via a developer account, enterprise cert, or similar), you will not get acceptable performance, because the emulator is forced to fall back into an interpreter mode. Even on Jailbroken devices, the hacks required to make JIT work cause weird issues: https://github.com/hrydgard/ppsspp/issues/9186 https://github.com/hrydgard/ppsspp/issues/9186

Crinus 7y ago

Why would eliminate the ability to develop apps for the iOS? You could be able to download a development environment "app" from the Mac App Store just like now. You'd be a bit more confined inside the environment itself, but there is nothing that would prevent developing applications with Apple's own tools while disallowing installing anything outside of MAS.

throwawaycert 7y ago
Any ability to execute arbitrary code is the ability to bypass the MAS. What's more, it's nice and efficient - iOS apps in development are compiled right to x86 machine code for the "simulator" that is little more than a thin VM. 100% of the projections I've seen about MacOS becoming a walled garden have been from people that don't actually have any real familiarity with Apple's ecosystem as developers.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  There are all sorts of restrictions Apple could place on software compiled "unofficially" with Xcode. For example, they could automatically sign it with testing certs that automatically expire after 7 days. macOS is a more open platform because Apple has decided to leave it that way, not because the property is literally essential for development.
  - throwawaycert 7y ago
    They already require periodic resigning of self-signed side-loaded apps on iOS, it doesn't stop even relatively casual users. (That's actually the funniest part about all this, now that I think about it. While everyone is wailing and gnashing their teeth about some speculative possibility that macOS ends up locked down like iOS, Apple has been making iOS more open.)
    - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
      > it doesn't stop even relatively casual users. Huh? Is there a significant number of power users who are resigning their apps every seven days? I find this somewhat hard to believe, given just how annoying it is, combined with the three-app limit.
      - throwawaycert 7y ago
        I didn't even know there was a three app limit on it. Most people don't use very many apps. But yes, quite a lot of us routinely sideload apps on non-jailbroken iOS devices.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    So how would Apple enforce code signing on code that ran on top of a VM like Java or C# or scripting languages?
    - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
      By not allowing JITs, just like on iOS.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        So you really think Apple is not going to not allow the Mac to run any scripting language or program that runs on top of a VM? Do you think they are also going to take away shell access? They are also not going to allow any Electron apps?
        Wowfunhappy 7y ago
        > So you really think Apple is not going to not allow the Mac to run any scripting language or program that runs on top of a VM? No, I don't, double check which commenter you're replying to. :) I'm just arguing Apple could lock down macOS if they wanted to, without making iOS development impossible.
      - throwawaycert 7y ago
        iOS allows JITs. This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're using bad or outdated second or third-hand info with no regard for the game of telephone involved in getting it to you, nor the anti-Apple zealots obfuscating the truth on its way.
        Wowfunhappy 7y ago
        Are you sure? I admittedly can't find a definitive source on this now, so perhaps the restriction is more nuanced than I realized. What I do know is: if you try to use more intensive emulators like PPSSPP on a non-Jailbroken iOS device (via a developer account, enterprise cert, or similar), you will not get acceptable performance, because the emulator is forced to fall back into an interpreter mode. Even on Jailbroken devices, the hacks required to make JIT work cause weird issues: https://github.com/hrydgard/ppsspp/issues/9186 https://github.com/hrydgard/ppsspp/issues/9186