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As an end user I approve of the walled garden. I don't mind the limitations on other forms of payment. I think it helps prevent fraud and insecure transactions,

by fhood 7y ago

As an end user I approve of the walled garden. I don't mind the limitations on other forms of payment. I think it helps prevent fraud and insecure transactions, and I like the freedom and ease of use that comes with knowing that apps on the ios store went through a fairly substantial review process. As a developer (though it has been a few years since I wrote code for mobile) Apple's tools, documentation and libraries were so much better than Google's, though that may say more about Google than Apple. And I approve of app store revenue supporting those tools. But 30% is really, really high. I don't work for Apple, or Google for that matter, so I have no insight into what portion of the money goes to the services mentioned above, but it seems to me that even 20% would be pretty hard to swallow, and 30% seems unreasonable. I would love to hear from someone with actual knowledge of this how much of that app store revenue is profit.

tomduncalf 7y ago
>As a developer (though it has been a few years since I wrote code for mobile) Apple's tools, documentation and libraries were so much better than Google's This is still very much true IME, Android Studio has much more frequent random issues and is generally slower and harder to work with than Xcode (I use both every day)
swebs 7y ago
>But 30% is really, really high Interestingly, that's about the average income tax rate. I wonder if Apple and Uncle Sam both independently came to the same conclusion that that's the highest amount that they can get away with without hitting the tipping point.
- lancesells 7y ago
  It's not Apple it's everyone. Sell an eBook on Amazon - 35 to 70% royalty. I'm sure there are some outliers but most are right in that range. I think physical products seem to be less than digital ones: Ebay ~10%, Etsy ~5%.
  - ramses0 7y ago
    30/30/30 splits are extremely common across all industries. https://www.nuvonium.com/blog/view/how-to-price-your-product-for-retail-distributor-and-direct-to-consumer-sal https://www.nuvonium.com/blog/view/how-to-price-your-product... Basically a $10 product had better cost $3 to make, $6 for wholesale, and $10 MSRP. If you're outsourcing manufacture, then you're likely adding another layer in there for a 30/30/30 split.
- sfkdjf9j3j 7y ago
  Where did you get that average income tax rate figure from? It seems high. But regardless, because of the U.S.'s income disparity, I don't think looking at an average here is a meaningful comparison.
tonyedgecombe 7y ago
The documentation isn’t great, I’m learning Core Data at the moment and it’s unclear and riddled with mistakes. Google’s must be terrible if it’s worse.
- auggierose 7y ago
  Never understood why anyone would use Core Data for anything. What are you using it for?
  - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
    Persistence, I might end up abandoning it but I felt I should at least try it first.
- asark 7y ago
  It is. It's really, really bad. Their platform overall is also a lot less... well, good, frankly. You end up bringing in third party libraries a lot for basic stuff if you don't want life to be a living hell of re-discovering reasons people don't use some of the built-in stuff, or stumbling over years-old hundred-comment bug reports that remain unresolved (you'll still hit some of those, just less frequently). Support for major Google features and initiatives often sucks—Material generally, and as of a couple years ago their Maps library was worse than the JS version in some important ways, such that you'd end up calling out to javascript if you needed something as little-used as, say, address components (rather than one big address string). Yes, seriously. This is a pattern for them. I don't get it, but that's the way it is. Android's not built on a great foundation, and sees a surprising amount of neglect and half-assery in its ongoing development.
turbinerneiter 7y ago
Apple has a profit margin of 37%. 2017 the App store revenue was ~50 billion, which means Apple made 15 billions from fees. Their net income was ~50 billion, too, which means 0 App store fees would reduce their profits by 30%. Not sure if all numbers are correct, but I guess this should give us a ballpark feeling of what we are talking about.
- y_molodtsov 7y ago
  Putting together margins on their hardware and software products just can’t be right.
  - turbinerneiter 7y ago
    Why? The profit margin is a number that includes everything. I compare this to the revenue they make from app store fees. If they stop taking that revenue, their revenue decreases by exactly that amount, their expenses stay the same, so their profit also decreases by exactly that amount.
arendtio 7y ago
As an end-user, I don't trust that 'fairly substantial review process'. There have been so many stories about apps collecting data that is not in the interest of the user, that I trust apps from F-Droid much easier than apps from the large App-Stores. Sounds a bit irrational, but I don't think it is (at least at the moment).
dwild 7y ago
> I think it helps prevent fraud and insecure transactions I got an amazing service to offer you, it's a debit card with 30% fees that will prevent fraud and insecure transactions!
SebastianKra 7y ago
As an end user I _do_ mind the walled garden. There is at least one App (ProTube) that I can't use just because some Company (Google) got Apple to kick it out of the AppStore. I also can't download Torrents or use Emulators. There's no justified reason - Apple just doesn't want me to. And there's nothing I can do, because the alternatives are far inferior (at least for my use cases). I can only hope for regulation.

by fhood 7y ago

tomduncalf 7y ago

>As a developer (though it has been a few years since I wrote code for mobile) Apple's tools, documentation and libraries were so much better than Google's This is still very much true IME, Android Studio has much more frequent random issues and is generally slower and harder to work with than Xcode (I use both every day)

swebs 7y ago

>But 30% is really, really high Interestingly, that's about the average income tax rate. I wonder if Apple and Uncle Sam both independently came to the same conclusion that that's the highest amount that they can get away with without hitting the tipping point.

lancesells 7y ago
It's not Apple it's everyone. Sell an eBook on Amazon - 35 to 70% royalty. I'm sure there are some outliers but most are right in that range. I think physical products seem to be less than digital ones: Ebay ~10%, Etsy ~5%.
- ramses0 7y ago
  30/30/30 splits are extremely common across all industries. https://www.nuvonium.com/blog/view/how-to-price-your-product-for-retail-distributor-and-direct-to-consumer-sal https://www.nuvonium.com/blog/view/how-to-price-your-product... Basically a $10 product had better cost $3 to make, $6 for wholesale, and $10 MSRP. If you're outsourcing manufacture, then you're likely adding another layer in there for a 30/30/30 split.
sfkdjf9j3j 7y ago
Where did you get that average income tax rate figure from? It seems high. But regardless, because of the U.S.'s income disparity, I don't think looking at an average here is a meaningful comparison.

tonyedgecombe 7y ago

The documentation isn’t great, I’m learning Core Data at the moment and it’s unclear and riddled with mistakes. Google’s must be terrible if it’s worse.

auggierose 7y ago
Never understood why anyone would use Core Data for anything. What are you using it for?
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  Persistence, I might end up abandoning it but I felt I should at least try it first.
asark 7y ago
It is. It's really, really bad. Their platform overall is also a lot less... well, good, frankly. You end up bringing in third party libraries a lot for basic stuff if you don't want life to be a living hell of re-discovering reasons people don't use some of the built-in stuff, or stumbling over years-old hundred-comment bug reports that remain unresolved (you'll still hit some of those, just less frequently). Support for major Google features and initiatives often sucks—Material generally, and as of a couple years ago their Maps library was worse than the JS version in some important ways, such that you'd end up calling out to javascript if you needed something as little-used as, say, address components (rather than one big address string). Yes, seriously. This is a pattern for them. I don't get it, but that's the way it is. Android's not built on a great foundation, and sees a surprising amount of neglect and half-assery in its ongoing development.

turbinerneiter 7y ago

Apple has a profit margin of 37%. 2017 the App store revenue was ~50 billion, which means Apple made 15 billions from fees. Their net income was ~50 billion, too, which means 0 App store fees would reduce their profits by 30%. Not sure if all numbers are correct, but I guess this should give us a ballpark feeling of what we are talking about.

y_molodtsov 7y ago
Putting together margins on their hardware and software products just can’t be right.
- turbinerneiter 7y ago
  Why? The profit margin is a number that includes everything. I compare this to the revenue they make from app store fees. If they stop taking that revenue, their revenue decreases by exactly that amount, their expenses stay the same, so their profit also decreases by exactly that amount.

arendtio 7y ago

As an end-user, I don't trust that 'fairly substantial review process'. There have been so many stories about apps collecting data that is not in the interest of the user, that I trust apps from F-Droid much easier than apps from the large App-Stores. Sounds a bit irrational, but I don't think it is (at least at the moment).

dwild 7y ago

> I think it helps prevent fraud and insecure transactions I got an amazing service to offer you, it's a debit card with 30% fees that will prevent fraud and insecure transactions!

SebastianKra 7y ago

As an end user I _do_ mind the walled garden. There is at least one App (ProTube) that I can't use just because some Company (Google) got Apple to kick it out of the AppStore. I also can't download Torrents or use Emulators. There's no justified reason - Apple just doesn't want me to. And there's nothing I can do, because the alternatives are far inferior (at least for my use cases). I can only hope for regulation.