4 ms·

I don't see too much of an issue to be fair, experience comes from taking risks and surviving crises, not from staying home. And you take risks because you know

I don't see too much of an issue to be fair, experience comes from taking risks and surviving crises, not from staying home. And you take risks because you know people will help you if something bad happens. Of course 2 trends are against it: the tribals who believe they are more legit than others to do the trek for some reason (like the hunters or locals), and the economists who believe taxes should pay for the army, not for rescuing citizen who had an accident, and that normal citizens who want to do that should pay an army of guides and sherpas who will iron out any issue. I don't subscribe to any of it, tribalism is a license to be an asshole, and guides tend to be only nice to wealthy clients.

cf141q5325 7y ago
Its volunteer firefighters who are responding to the calls for rescue. >It's primarily volunteer firefighters that execute these rescues. And there have been numerous rescues. Getting yourself knowingly in that danger, relying on people having to rescue you if it doesnt pan out seems rather shitty to me.
- nraynaud 7y ago
  that's what hunters, miners, people lighting their fireplace or people driving their cars do all the time there.
denzil 7y ago
The issue as I see it is, that they put the people, who have to rescue them in unnecessary danger as well as potentially drawing them from other places they might be needed at. There are other ways to grow, that don't put others in danger, so I personally see this as something quite stupid.
- nraynaud 7y ago
  I don't agree with this line of reasoning. Every time you take your car, you put pedestrians and bikes in danger, and when a car hurt them it take EMTs away from the heart attacks at home (which I guess it the societal goal). Truth is, accidents individually happen so rarely that we just think that it's ok to drive a car. Here is the deal: as seen from the EMTs point of view, there are freaking people hurt every single day and it's a nightmare out there. Same with hiking in remote places, it's a bit more dangerous, but still most of the time you don't die (I'd venture to argue that the average number of death per person is only one), so the averaged risk is quite low still, but every time you slip on a rock, cross a sketchy river, etc. You gain experience that will further reduce the risk.
  - jdietrich 7y ago
    When people drive, we expect them to have a certain level of competence and for their car to be in good working order - there are unavoidable risks to driving, but society expects people to take reasonable steps to mitigate those risks. It's the same principle if you're going into the wilderness. Going into the back country without the right training and equipment is just stupid and selfish.
    - arethuza 7y ago
      "Going into the back country without the right training and equipment is just stupid and selfish" I agree - don't think making it illegal would help though (e.g. requiring an "outdoors license").
  - hef19898 7y ago
    Well, there is risk taking and risk taking. If you take a calculated risk taking into account weather, skills, environment etc.. and then something happens that's what you have first responders for. If, on the other hand, you take risks you are not equipped to handle and judge due a lack of skill and ability and you need than first responders you are acting irresponsible. You might also end up in much more dangerous situations then the above mentioned group of people again increasing risk for first responders. You always hear about people unable to judge risks in the Alps.
    - nraynaud 7y ago
      Here is the deal: when people die in the back country, they will always be judged by wether they lived there or not. If they were from somewhere else, they will be insulted in death as careless tourists, and if they were local, it will be deemed a terrible act of god. Nobody is able to access the skill level and preparedness of dead people across a news article. It's a buffet of prejudice. They will tell you of careless tourists walking somewhere they shouldn't in sneakers, but a local climbing in sneakers will deemed skilled. I have seen mountaineering guides going solo in ice climbing higher than their clients, going in the mountains in sneakers (which I'm not sure is stupid in the circumstances, but imagine a news article describing a dead tourist with sneakers on their feet). And you can be criticized in many ways: calling for help to early (that was not very dangerous), too late (you didn't recognize the subtle beginning of a crisis and you let it unfold), too much, not enough. It's all about the identity of the dead and the "angle" journalists will have chosen.
SapporoChris 7y ago
>> don't see too much of an issue to be fair, experience comes from taking risks and surviving crises, not from staying home. Are you stating that no experience can be had without risk and/or surviving a crisis? I am troubled, wondering if some of the experiences I have had have indeed not been experiences at all. >>And you take risks because you know people will help you if something bad happens. That seems patently absurd, plenty of seasoned people take risks knowing that that no one will bail them out, and they will need to rely solely on their own resources.

cf141q5325 7y ago

Its volunteer firefighters who are responding to the calls for rescue. >It's primarily volunteer firefighters that execute these rescues. And there have been numerous rescues. Getting yourself knowingly in that danger, relying on people having to rescue you if it doesnt pan out seems rather shitty to me.

nraynaud 7y ago
that's what hunters, miners, people lighting their fireplace or people driving their cars do all the time there.

denzil 7y ago

The issue as I see it is, that they put the people, who have to rescue them in unnecessary danger as well as potentially drawing them from other places they might be needed at. There are other ways to grow, that don't put others in danger, so I personally see this as something quite stupid.

nraynaud 7y ago
I don't agree with this line of reasoning. Every time you take your car, you put pedestrians and bikes in danger, and when a car hurt them it take EMTs away from the heart attacks at home (which I guess it the societal goal). Truth is, accidents individually happen so rarely that we just think that it's ok to drive a car. Here is the deal: as seen from the EMTs point of view, there are freaking people hurt every single day and it's a nightmare out there. Same with hiking in remote places, it's a bit more dangerous, but still most of the time you don't die (I'd venture to argue that the average number of death per person is only one), so the averaged risk is quite low still, but every time you slip on a rock, cross a sketchy river, etc. You gain experience that will further reduce the risk.
- jdietrich 7y ago
  When people drive, we expect them to have a certain level of competence and for their car to be in good working order - there are unavoidable risks to driving, but society expects people to take reasonable steps to mitigate those risks. It's the same principle if you're going into the wilderness. Going into the back country without the right training and equipment is just stupid and selfish.
  - arethuza 7y ago
    "Going into the back country without the right training and equipment is just stupid and selfish" I agree - don't think making it illegal would help though (e.g. requiring an "outdoors license").
- hef19898 7y ago
  Well, there is risk taking and risk taking. If you take a calculated risk taking into account weather, skills, environment etc.. and then something happens that's what you have first responders for. If, on the other hand, you take risks you are not equipped to handle and judge due a lack of skill and ability and you need than first responders you are acting irresponsible. You might also end up in much more dangerous situations then the above mentioned group of people again increasing risk for first responders. You always hear about people unable to judge risks in the Alps.
  - nraynaud 7y ago
    Here is the deal: when people die in the back country, they will always be judged by wether they lived there or not. If they were from somewhere else, they will be insulted in death as careless tourists, and if they were local, it will be deemed a terrible act of god. Nobody is able to access the skill level and preparedness of dead people across a news article. It's a buffet of prejudice. They will tell you of careless tourists walking somewhere they shouldn't in sneakers, but a local climbing in sneakers will deemed skilled. I have seen mountaineering guides going solo in ice climbing higher than their clients, going in the mountains in sneakers (which I'm not sure is stupid in the circumstances, but imagine a news article describing a dead tourist with sneakers on their feet). And you can be criticized in many ways: calling for help to early (that was not very dangerous), too late (you didn't recognize the subtle beginning of a crisis and you let it unfold), too much, not enough. It's all about the identity of the dead and the "angle" journalists will have chosen.

SapporoChris 7y ago

>> don't see too much of an issue to be fair, experience comes from taking risks and surviving crises, not from staying home. Are you stating that no experience can be had without risk and/or surviving a crisis? I am troubled, wondering if some of the experiences I have had have indeed not been experiences at all. >>And you take risks because you know people will help you if something bad happens. That seems patently absurd, plenty of seasoned people take risks knowing that that no one will bail them out, and they will need to rely solely on their own resources.