6 ms·

Do you remember FirefoxOS, the smartphone OS that was developed by Mozilla ? It was abandoned in 2016, but KaiOS, the operating system powering these feature ph

jonathanstrange 7y ago
I can still not see the sense in programming cheap underpowered phones with HTML5/JS/CSS instead of writing native software for them.
- arcturus17 7y ago
  Cheaper because the skills are ubiquitous. I'm also assuming the apps are simple so the web triad can cover most use cases.
  - madeofpalk 7y ago
    It's irrelevant because still no one will build for the platform. MS, Blackberry, Nokia have all demonstrated there's just no market for a third "app platform". These phones will have the apps from the factory, and nothing more.
    - cameronbrown 7y ago
      The point was to convince developers to write their apps for the open web as well. Something that definitely was justifiable.
    - panpanna 7y ago
      Maybe you can not earn tons of money by writing a "drink beer" or "I am rich" app, but people are writing simple games and utilities with millions of installs.
      - madeofpalk 7y ago
        The platforms I mentioned simply don't exist any more because all people made for them were "drink beer" apps.
    - sdenton4 7y ago
      They have what Microsoft didn't: an exploding user base.
- AndyMcConachie 7y ago
  Development time. Time to market is more important than performance even on slow phones.
  - ulfw 7y ago
    Time to market for what? Do you think those users won't use apps that are built for hundreds of millions of users (i.e. same/similar chat, payments etc apps as everyone else uses)
- arethuza 7y ago
  I wonder if there is a compromise that would look something like Gopher - very lightweight, limited UI etc. NB I'm not literally recommending Gopher but a modern day equivalent.
- em-bee 7y ago
  i made a similar comment below. you expect us developers to cater to every different device out there? i am sorry, but the whole promise of the web is that i don't have to write native code any more. in fact this promise was once made by steven jobs, except that the phones at the time were not capable enough. the question is not, what's the point of using web tech for underpowered phones, but the question is why do you expect me to cater to a minority market, and when do we reach the point that any device is powerful enough to handle web tech? because that is where the future is going. native development is a stop gap to handle high performance requirements, but make no mistake, its days are counted. web development is the future that will replace all app development, whether we like it or not. even on the desktop, thanks to webassembly the browser is the future development target on any device out there. native apps will become a niche for only very specialized applications, and servers.
  - lagadu 7y ago
    I don't expect you to cater to a minority market, but whoever writes apps that run significantly better than "generic" ones using html or other frameworks (dear electron-based developers: your apps are garbage) will get my money. Niches have a lot of money in them, to the point that entire industries blossom just to cater to them. Things like high-end personal audio and performance automobiles are both multi-billion industries.
    - em-bee 7y ago
      i doubt it, because you are not going to find my app. you are going to want the same apps that everyone else uses, and the fact that there are a few apps out there that actually run well on your phone is not going to make a serious dent in my profits. i have yet to hear about any apps that became popular because they performed better than others. in the whole market, that's just a blip. things like high-end personal audio and performance automobiles are a high-end market market. you are asking me to create a high-performance app for a low-end market. the dynamics here are entirely different. and the profit margin is too. well preforming apps for underpowered phones is a minority market. i wouldn't even know how to promote my app to you. my app is significantly faster than the competitors, and it even runs well on your cheap semi-smart phone but does it have feature X? sorry no, because that would make it slow how much does it cost? $20 uh, why did you think i bought a cheap phone? apps for this market will not be sold on performance, but on solving problems that are specific to this particular group of people.
- jmkni 7y ago
  I think that HTML5/JS/CSS is the recommended way to write apps for KaiOS. Seems kind of fun in a way, the bloated JS frameworks we are used to probably won't run very well, so you would need to work at a lower level and really optimize.
  - felideon 7y ago
    Or work with a JS framework that compiles into vanilla JS, like Svelte[1]. [1] https://svelte.dev https://svelte.dev
    - jmkni 7y ago
      Nice, wasn't even aware that Svelte was a thing, thanks.
- IloveHN84 7y ago
  Because most app writers don't know how to write native code? See all the bloated React powered apps out there
  - zdragnar 7y ago
    The company that I work for doesn't have a native app for our web-based product. Part of this is definitely because we have only two developers, and not enough time to invest in additional platforms. However, when our sales guys talk to customers (SMBs), they are universally pleased that we don't have a native app for phones. None of their employees want to install an app just to use the software on their phones. The fact that our product has a responsive design and is sufficiently performant on android and iOS based phones is more than enough for them. Gotta know your market.
- mamcx 7y ago
  A normal "excuse" is that html is "easier" (LIES!) and if you wait loooong enough the performance will catch up. I concede css make styling far easier than any native toolkit. And is true that most UI toolkit are so unfriendly that make html+js look soooo good in contrast. But native development have been far simpler, productive and easier for solo developers before: Delphi, HyperCard, Smalltalk, Visual FoxPro, Visual Basic prove it. My experience is that most developers I know (in latin america) prefer 1000% of the time (maybe not exagerating by much) to code in that tools than html. Html/js is dreaded. Is like "damm... I MUST do html and js because... what choice I have?". The huge indictment of our industry is that it bet in a subpar tech (html/js) and have forgotten to invest on UI toolkits. Look how much take Apple to get swift UI. Decades! Decades! And it have hypercard before!!
- Waterluvian 7y ago
  Knowing I can't change the past and don't care much about the future beyond the near term success of my platform, I would target the languages that have an overwhelming majority of developers. I have a sense that the web stack makes up a large majority of developers who can/do develop UI-centric user applications.
contingencies 7y ago
Do you remember FirefoxOS, the smartphone OS that was developed by Mozilla ? It was abandoned in 2016, but KaiOS, the operating system powering these feature phones, is its descendant Yeah. I bought two FirefoxOS phones and was keen. Unfortunately it never got to critical mass. Actually mailed the last of them to someone from India I met on HN. Recently I saw a French guy in HK on my LinkedIn managing some new effort under KaiOS. I was all motivated to meet and share some ideas (used to work in mobile, most handset manufacturers ~2009-2010) but found out the company is owned by that evil mafiosi Ambani, the same guy who bulldozed thousands of people's homes in Mumbai to build an uninhabited luxury condo, and who is destroying Australia's Queensland/Barrier Reef region with a massive coal mine. Crook.
- FlyingSnake 7y ago
  > who bulldozed thousands of people's homes in Mumbai to build an uninhabited luxury condo Do you have source for this claim? > who is destroying Australia's Queensland/Barrier Reef region That's Adani, not Ambani. I'm no fan of crony capitalism, but such false claims on HN aren't cool.
  - contingencies 7y ago
    Oops my bad! Sorry end of a hacking session didn't fact check :) Unintentional. Thanks for setting the record straight.
  - propertymagnate 7y ago
    I've never heard of him before, but I looked it up and it would appear the condo claim of being unoccupied for a significant period of time after construction and bulldozing peoples homes (possibly not thousands but apparently including an orphanage) is true. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antilia_(building) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antilia_(building)
salsadip 7y ago
A little more info from the KaiOS website (https://developer.kaiostech.com https://developer.kaiostech.com): > KaiOS is a web-based mobile operating system that enables a new category of smart feature phones. It is forked from B2G (Boot to Gecko), a successor of the discontinued Firefox OS. KaiOS brings support of 4G/LTE, GPS, and Wi-Fi, as well as HTML5-based apps and longer battery life, to non-touch devices. It has an optimized user interface for smart feature phones, needs little memory, and consumes less energy than other operating systems. It also comes with the KaiStore, which enables users to download applications in categories like social media, games, navigation, and streaming entertainment.

jonathanstrange 7y ago

I can still not see the sense in programming cheap underpowered phones with HTML5/JS/CSS instead of writing native software for them.

arcturus17 7y ago
Cheaper because the skills are ubiquitous. I'm also assuming the apps are simple so the web triad can cover most use cases.
- madeofpalk 7y ago
  It's irrelevant because still no one will build for the platform. MS, Blackberry, Nokia have all demonstrated there's just no market for a third "app platform". These phones will have the apps from the factory, and nothing more.
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    The point was to convince developers to write their apps for the open web as well. Something that definitely was justifiable.
  - panpanna 7y ago
    Maybe you can not earn tons of money by writing a "drink beer" or "I am rich" app, but people are writing simple games and utilities with millions of installs.
    - madeofpalk 7y ago
      The platforms I mentioned simply don't exist any more because all people made for them were "drink beer" apps.
  - sdenton4 7y ago
    They have what Microsoft didn't: an exploding user base.
AndyMcConachie 7y ago
Development time. Time to market is more important than performance even on slow phones.
- ulfw 7y ago
  Time to market for what? Do you think those users won't use apps that are built for hundreds of millions of users (i.e. same/similar chat, payments etc apps as everyone else uses)
arethuza 7y ago
I wonder if there is a compromise that would look something like Gopher - very lightweight, limited UI etc. NB I'm not literally recommending Gopher but a modern day equivalent.
em-bee 7y ago
i made a similar comment below. you expect us developers to cater to every different device out there? i am sorry, but the whole promise of the web is that i don't have to write native code any more. in fact this promise was once made by steven jobs, except that the phones at the time were not capable enough. the question is not, what's the point of using web tech for underpowered phones, but the question is why do you expect me to cater to a minority market, and when do we reach the point that any device is powerful enough to handle web tech? because that is where the future is going. native development is a stop gap to handle high performance requirements, but make no mistake, its days are counted. web development is the future that will replace all app development, whether we like it or not. even on the desktop, thanks to webassembly the browser is the future development target on any device out there. native apps will become a niche for only very specialized applications, and servers.
- lagadu 7y ago
  I don't expect you to cater to a minority market, but whoever writes apps that run significantly better than "generic" ones using html or other frameworks (dear electron-based developers: your apps are garbage) will get my money. Niches have a lot of money in them, to the point that entire industries blossom just to cater to them. Things like high-end personal audio and performance automobiles are both multi-billion industries.
  - em-bee 7y ago
    i doubt it, because you are not going to find my app. you are going to want the same apps that everyone else uses, and the fact that there are a few apps out there that actually run well on your phone is not going to make a serious dent in my profits. i have yet to hear about any apps that became popular because they performed better than others. in the whole market, that's just a blip. things like high-end personal audio and performance automobiles are a high-end market market. you are asking me to create a high-performance app for a low-end market. the dynamics here are entirely different. and the profit margin is too. well preforming apps for underpowered phones is a minority market. i wouldn't even know how to promote my app to you. my app is significantly faster than the competitors, and it even runs well on your cheap semi-smart phone but does it have feature X? sorry no, because that would make it slow how much does it cost? $20 uh, why did you think i bought a cheap phone? apps for this market will not be sold on performance, but on solving problems that are specific to this particular group of people.
jmkni 7y ago
I think that HTML5/JS/CSS is the recommended way to write apps for KaiOS. Seems kind of fun in a way, the bloated JS frameworks we are used to probably won't run very well, so you would need to work at a lower level and really optimize.
- felideon 7y ago
  Or work with a JS framework that compiles into vanilla JS, like Svelte[1]. [1] https://svelte.dev https://svelte.dev
  - jmkni 7y ago
    Nice, wasn't even aware that Svelte was a thing, thanks.
IloveHN84 7y ago
Because most app writers don't know how to write native code? See all the bloated React powered apps out there
- zdragnar 7y ago
  The company that I work for doesn't have a native app for our web-based product. Part of this is definitely because we have only two developers, and not enough time to invest in additional platforms. However, when our sales guys talk to customers (SMBs), they are universally pleased that we don't have a native app for phones. None of their employees want to install an app just to use the software on their phones. The fact that our product has a responsive design and is sufficiently performant on android and iOS based phones is more than enough for them. Gotta know your market.
mamcx 7y ago
A normal "excuse" is that html is "easier" (LIES!) and if you wait loooong enough the performance will catch up. I concede css make styling far easier than any native toolkit. And is true that most UI toolkit are so unfriendly that make html+js look soooo good in contrast. But native development have been far simpler, productive and easier for solo developers before: Delphi, HyperCard, Smalltalk, Visual FoxPro, Visual Basic prove it. My experience is that most developers I know (in latin america) prefer 1000% of the time (maybe not exagerating by much) to code in that tools than html. Html/js is dreaded. Is like "damm... I MUST do html and js because... what choice I have?". The huge indictment of our industry is that it bet in a subpar tech (html/js) and have forgotten to invest on UI toolkits. Look how much take Apple to get swift UI. Decades! Decades! And it have hypercard before!!
Waterluvian 7y ago
Knowing I can't change the past and don't care much about the future beyond the near term success of my platform, I would target the languages that have an overwhelming majority of developers. I have a sense that the web stack makes up a large majority of developers who can/do develop UI-centric user applications.

contingencies 7y ago

Do you remember FirefoxOS, the smartphone OS that was developed by Mozilla ? It was abandoned in 2016, but KaiOS, the operating system powering these feature phones, is its descendant Yeah. I bought two FirefoxOS phones and was keen. Unfortunately it never got to critical mass. Actually mailed the last of them to someone from India I met on HN. Recently I saw a French guy in HK on my LinkedIn managing some new effort under KaiOS. I was all motivated to meet and share some ideas (used to work in mobile, most handset manufacturers ~2009-2010) but found out the company is owned by that evil mafiosi Ambani, the same guy who bulldozed thousands of people's homes in Mumbai to build an uninhabited luxury condo, and who is destroying Australia's Queensland/Barrier Reef region with a massive coal mine. Crook.

FlyingSnake 7y ago
> who bulldozed thousands of people's homes in Mumbai to build an uninhabited luxury condo Do you have source for this claim? > who is destroying Australia's Queensland/Barrier Reef region That's Adani, not Ambani. I'm no fan of crony capitalism, but such false claims on HN aren't cool.
- contingencies 7y ago
  Oops my bad! Sorry end of a hacking session didn't fact check :) Unintentional. Thanks for setting the record straight.
- propertymagnate 7y ago
  I've never heard of him before, but I looked it up and it would appear the condo claim of being unoccupied for a significant period of time after construction and bulldozing peoples homes (possibly not thousands but apparently including an orphanage) is true. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antilia_(building) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antilia_(building)

salsadip 7y ago

A little more info from the KaiOS website (https://developer.kaiostech.com https://developer.kaiostech.com): > KaiOS is a web-based mobile operating system that enables a new category of smart feature phones. It is forked from B2G (Boot to Gecko), a successor of the discontinued Firefox OS. KaiOS brings support of 4G/LTE, GPS, and Wi-Fi, as well as HTML5-based apps and longer battery life, to non-touch devices. It has an optimized user interface for smart feature phones, needs little memory, and consumes less energy than other operating systems. It also comes with the KaiStore, which enables users to download applications in categories like social media, games, navigation, and streaming entertainment.