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>>> Folks who don't want to pair generally don't apply. Of those who apply, some try it during the interview process and decide it's not for them. That... soun

>>> Folks who don't want to pair generally don't apply. Of those who apply, some try it during the interview process and decide it's not for them. That... sounds like forced to me?

jacques_chester 7y ago
It doesn't to me, so this might be a disagreement about the meaning of forced. Nobody is surprised that the default mode is fulltime pairing, we make a point of having candidates experience it beforehand. And as I noted above, pairing isn't mandated. Teams are free to adopt any process they please, but most folks at Pivotal like the defaults and we tend to gravitate to them.
- nfrbc 7y ago
  I've been in such a team. Pairing was optional, but the team chose to do it, so everyone on the team had to do it. It wasn't "forced" because I "always had the option to quit the job". It was hell.
  - jacques_chester 7y ago
    I'm sorry that your experience was hell. My experience has been different. That doesn't detract from yours.
    - nfrbc 7y ago
      It's alright. I had great experiences with pairing when it wasn't forced on me and I had autonomy.
PhasmaFelis 7y ago
If you interview with a company known for making widgets, you don't get to say they "forced" you to make widgets to keep your job.
- rxhernandez 7y ago
  It's pretty damn near forced if you're on a visa. I had brilliant friends in the Bay area that felt like they were forced to stay at their incredibly toxic jobs since the job market was rough for them and not having a job meant leaving the country.
  - cornicecream 7y ago
    I don't believe that's the fault of the company, nor their responsibility. There are many people that feel forced to stay at toxic jobs, in the Bay Area as locals, because their lifestyle relies on having zero unemployment windows - e.g., they'll default on credit card and house payments. Especially to those on a visa, the only one forcing you to remain in the USA / Bay Area / x company is yourself. To put it bluntly, no one is entitled to a job, and this applies to every person. In this scenario, it's not like strangers are being pulled off the streets by Pivotal to pair program.
    - rxhernandez 7y ago
      This is a pretty poor model for how employment should work, morally. Let's put this model to a realistic extreme to see how it falls apart: Suppose an employer asks a loved one to have sex with them or they lose their job. I mean, no one is putting a gun to your loved one's head to have sex with their employer, but something is clearly very wrong at this level right? Suppose they have an expensive debilitating medical condition that can really only be treated with good insurance (I have seen this firsthand where a medication can cost hundreds a month even with insurance (not great insurance but I was an intern, it was all I could afford)). Suppose they tried searching for a job with comparable insurance for years but always come up empty. Now when it's between whether or not you will go homeless with a debilitating medical condition or basically being raped, what would you choose? Frankly, I would rather be raped. I have been in the hospital with great insurance as well, when my condition was at its worst, and even morphine and norco did nothing to make the pain go away; I can only imagine how much worse it would have been on the streets with that kind of unending pain; I can only imagine never being able to find a job like that ever again because I will always be in unending pain and never be able to interview well. Fortunately, I got really really lucky in that I am an engineer who is an American citizen that can find jobs easily that dont require me to physically be there but, most people are not in my position. Back to the point, if someone is more willing to be raped than to not be raped out of fear of the consequences, that's pretty damned close to forced right?
commandlinefan 7y ago
There's actually a name for this fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobson%27s_choice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobson%27s_choice
- jacques_chester 7y ago
  I thought about this some more and I think the distinction comes down to whether I am made to pair against my will. I'm not. So to me that doesn't feel forced. But if I worked for Company X and then one day Thou Shalt Pair Or Else, then yeah, it would feel shitty. Labs developers pair with client developers on engagements and sometimes it feels like they've been dropped from a very great height. Most of the time it works out fine: people are people and we work in the same industry and share many of the same experiences and passions. Sometimes it just doesn't work for everyone, which is also fine. But insofar as anyone from Pivotal is explicitly or implicitly saying "or else!", I think they are making a mistake and hope they get feedback about it.

>>> Folks who don't want to pair generally don't apply. Of those who apply, some try it during the interview process and decide it's not for them. That... sounds like forced to me?

jacques_chester 7y ago

It doesn't to me, so this might be a disagreement about the meaning of forced. Nobody is surprised that the default mode is fulltime pairing, we make a point of having candidates experience it beforehand. And as I noted above, pairing isn't mandated. Teams are free to adopt any process they please, but most folks at Pivotal like the defaults and we tend to gravitate to them.

nfrbc 7y ago
I've been in such a team. Pairing was optional, but the team chose to do it, so everyone on the team had to do it. It wasn't "forced" because I "always had the option to quit the job". It was hell.
- jacques_chester 7y ago
  I'm sorry that your experience was hell. My experience has been different. That doesn't detract from yours.
  - nfrbc 7y ago
    It's alright. I had great experiences with pairing when it wasn't forced on me and I had autonomy.

PhasmaFelis 7y ago

If you interview with a company known for making widgets, you don't get to say they "forced" you to make widgets to keep your job.

rxhernandez 7y ago
It's pretty damn near forced if you're on a visa. I had brilliant friends in the Bay area that felt like they were forced to stay at their incredibly toxic jobs since the job market was rough for them and not having a job meant leaving the country.
- cornicecream 7y ago
  I don't believe that's the fault of the company, nor their responsibility. There are many people that feel forced to stay at toxic jobs, in the Bay Area as locals, because their lifestyle relies on having zero unemployment windows - e.g., they'll default on credit card and house payments. Especially to those on a visa, the only one forcing you to remain in the USA / Bay Area / x company is yourself. To put it bluntly, no one is entitled to a job, and this applies to every person. In this scenario, it's not like strangers are being pulled off the streets by Pivotal to pair program.
  - rxhernandez 7y ago
    This is a pretty poor model for how employment should work, morally. Let's put this model to a realistic extreme to see how it falls apart: Suppose an employer asks a loved one to have sex with them or they lose their job. I mean, no one is putting a gun to your loved one's head to have sex with their employer, but something is clearly very wrong at this level right? Suppose they have an expensive debilitating medical condition that can really only be treated with good insurance (I have seen this firsthand where a medication can cost hundreds a month even with insurance (not great insurance but I was an intern, it was all I could afford)). Suppose they tried searching for a job with comparable insurance for years but always come up empty. Now when it's between whether or not you will go homeless with a debilitating medical condition or basically being raped, what would you choose? Frankly, I would rather be raped. I have been in the hospital with great insurance as well, when my condition was at its worst, and even morphine and norco did nothing to make the pain go away; I can only imagine how much worse it would have been on the streets with that kind of unending pain; I can only imagine never being able to find a job like that ever again because I will always be in unending pain and never be able to interview well. Fortunately, I got really really lucky in that I am an engineer who is an American citizen that can find jobs easily that dont require me to physically be there but, most people are not in my position. Back to the point, if someone is more willing to be raped than to not be raped out of fear of the consequences, that's pretty damned close to forced right?

commandlinefan 7y ago

There's actually a name for this fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobson%27s_choice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobson%27s_choice

jacques_chester 7y ago
I thought about this some more and I think the distinction comes down to whether I am made to pair against my will. I'm not. So to me that doesn't feel forced. But if I worked for Company X and then one day Thou Shalt Pair Or Else, then yeah, it would feel shitty. Labs developers pair with client developers on engagements and sometimes it feels like they've been dropped from a very great height. Most of the time it works out fine: people are people and we work in the same industry and share many of the same experiences and passions. Sometimes it just doesn't work for everyone, which is also fine. But insofar as anyone from Pivotal is explicitly or implicitly saying "or else!", I think they are making a mistake and hope they get feedback about it.