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The bite was to my abdomen so they had to do a CAT scan in case an internal organ was damaged. My care included a tetanus shot, intravenous liquids and antibio

The bite was to my abdomen so they had to do a CAT scan in case an internal organ was damaged. My care included a tetanus shot, intravenous liquids and antibiotics. So yes, I considered the $1000 reasonable. The ER doctor and radiologist were in-network so I paid the insurance negotiated price. All-in-all, the dog bite cost me $5000. The ambulance was $1800.

zepolen 7y ago
A 6 hour stay plus a few bios for $1000 is not reasonable. For that money you can get a week's care at a premium private hospital in Europe. An emergency ambulance costs 100 euro. I think America has been with an extortionate health care system for so long you guys are starting to consider it 'reasonable' It isn't. Let me put it another way. You can fly from America to Europe three times for $1800.
- woofyman 7y ago
  I considered it reasonable given our current horrible medical system. I want a single payer system.
  - zepolen 7y ago
    That requires ethical people to run and heavy enforcement otherwise it turns in to a corruption fest where doctors run their own private practices in addition to state funded and waiting lists run rampant forcing you to go private. What is needed is real competition in the health care sector - because at the moment the whole thing in America is a coalition/monopoly between insurance, pharma and health care companies with the sole intent of giving you no choice but to pay and say thank you.
    - red-indian 7y ago
      > where doctors run their own private practices The supposed evil sole individual human you postulate as the source of dire evil is not the problem usually, rather the evil collective corporation or other organization calls the shots when we see these sorts of industry wide systematic abuses.
- red-indian 7y ago
  And as a critical care patient he dies during the flight. Now what. Also, emergency last minute round trip flights to Europe are absolutely not $600 as you claim.
  - zepolen 7y ago
    I didn't claim emergency flight though, I said you can fly to Europe for less than $1800. Also no wonder healthcare is so expensive in the US - you're actually arguing for it...
    - red-indian 7y ago
      Fine. Last minute round trip flights to Europe from the US are not $600. PROVE ME WRONG.
      - zepolen 7y ago
        Return flight for 30 July from New York to Madrid for 354 euro ($394) https://www.google.com/flights?lite=0#flt=/m/02_286./m/056_y.2019-07-30.EWRMAD0UA51*/m/056_y./m/02_286.2019-08-10.MADBRU0SN3732~BRUEWR0UA998;c:EUR;e:1;sd:1;t:b;sp:2.EUR.35355*2.EUR.35355 https://www.google.com/flights?lite=0#flt=/m/02_286./m/056_y...
        kelnos 7y ago
        I think the point here is that you're making a completely irrelevant comparison. Comparing an ER visit to a transatlantic flight isn't even apples and oranges, it's apples and the kuiper belt.
  - floatingatoll 7y ago
    The estate is billed, and the collectors do anything in their power to block inheritance until paid.
- RHSeeger 7y ago
  To be fair, a $111 (100 euro) ambulance ride would not be a reasonable amount if you were paying for it outright. You're paying for the time of 2 EMTs, your share of the supplies in the ambulance, your share of the ambulance vehicle, gas. Plus you're not just paying for the time it took for your ride, you're paying for your portion of the entire day (since not all their time is utilized). Even without considering profit, that's well over $111. The fact that you're paying 100 Euro for the trip means is subsidized. Which is great, and it should be, but don't pretend 100 Euro is a reasonable price if you're actually paying for it.
  - zepolen 7y ago
    No subsidy, these are for private ambulances and a result of real competition. Using an average wage in the US to be double of Europe I'd say $200 for an ambulance ride in the US is a reasonable price. Also an ambulance ride is like 20-30mins tops and within a day there can easily be 4-5 calls in a larger city - that's more than enough to be profitable.
    - mlguy456 7y ago
      Wait, are you saying that 30k/mo gross is enough to run an ambulance service?
      - zepolen 7y ago
        Easily. 2 x EMTs @ $2,000 = $4,000 / month 1 x $100,000 amublance amortized over 3 years = $3,000 / month 150 gallons gas (150 miles per day @ 30mpg) x $2.50 = $375 / month Callcenter = $500 / month Overheads = $1000 / month Supplies = $1000 / month ----- Total cost = $10,000 / month
        mlguy456 7y ago
        Perhaps you know better, but my uneducated guess would be that just an ambulance vehicle costs 15k/month, then every medic costs 10k/month at least and there will be expensive weird things like commercial insurance that costs another 5k/month. 100k/month might make you break even in the long run.
- buzzerbetrayed 7y ago
  Why is how many times you can fly between two places relevant to how much medical bills cost? All you did was choose a metric that makes your argument appear more reasonable, even though they are entirely unrelated. You also seem to be arguing that Europe healthcare is cheaper and therefore better, even though it obviously is not that simple (I'm sure you know it isn't that simple. That's just how your reply comes across). For example, if I get cancer I would much rather be in the United States, despite the problems with their health care system, simply because I have a higher chance of living.
  - zepolen 7y ago
    Except the US has a much higher cancer mortality rate than almost all of Europe: https://www.wcrf.org/dietandcancer/cancer-trends/data-cancer-frequency-country https://www.wcrf.org/dietandcancer/cancer-trends/data-cancer...
    - dtwest 7y ago
      That doesn't prove anything about hospital quality. From your source: "Around 40% of cancer cases could be prevented by reducing exposure to cancer risk factors including diet, nutrition and physical activity". Americans live a lifestyle (fast food, less walking) that leads to a much higher risk of cancer than Europeans, the difference in mortality rate is mostly explained by this. Another way of thinking about this, looking at your data, do you really think Australia has the worst hospitals in the world because they have the highest cancer rate?
ceejayoz 7y ago
My wife had a three day stay in hospital and pins surgically placed in her shattered foot while we were on vacation in Australia in the early 2000s. $700 - and that was the non-resident price.

zepolen 7y ago

A 6 hour stay plus a few bios for $1000 is not reasonable. For that money you can get a week's care at a premium private hospital in Europe. An emergency ambulance costs 100 euro. I think America has been with an extortionate health care system for so long you guys are starting to consider it 'reasonable' It isn't. Let me put it another way. You can fly from America to Europe three times for $1800.

woofyman 7y ago
I considered it reasonable given our current horrible medical system. I want a single payer system.
- zepolen 7y ago
  That requires ethical people to run and heavy enforcement otherwise it turns in to a corruption fest where doctors run their own private practices in addition to state funded and waiting lists run rampant forcing you to go private. What is needed is real competition in the health care sector - because at the moment the whole thing in America is a coalition/monopoly between insurance, pharma and health care companies with the sole intent of giving you no choice but to pay and say thank you.
  - red-indian 7y ago
    > where doctors run their own private practices The supposed evil sole individual human you postulate as the source of dire evil is not the problem usually, rather the evil collective corporation or other organization calls the shots when we see these sorts of industry wide systematic abuses.
red-indian 7y ago
And as a critical care patient he dies during the flight. Now what. Also, emergency last minute round trip flights to Europe are absolutely not $600 as you claim.
- zepolen 7y ago
  I didn't claim emergency flight though, I said you can fly to Europe for less than $1800. Also no wonder healthcare is so expensive in the US - you're actually arguing for it...
  - red-indian 7y ago
    Fine. Last minute round trip flights to Europe from the US are not $600. PROVE ME WRONG.
    - zepolen 7y ago
      Return flight for 30 July from New York to Madrid for 354 euro ($394) https://www.google.com/flights?lite=0#flt=/m/02_286./m/056_y.2019-07-30.EWRMAD0UA51*/m/056_y./m/02_286.2019-08-10.MADBRU0SN3732~BRUEWR0UA998;c:EUR;e:1;sd:1;t:b;sp:2.EUR.35355*2.EUR.35355 https://www.google.com/flights?lite=0#flt=/m/02_286./m/056_y...
      - kelnos 7y ago
        I think the point here is that you're making a completely irrelevant comparison. Comparing an ER visit to a transatlantic flight isn't even apples and oranges, it's apples and the kuiper belt.
- floatingatoll 7y ago
  The estate is billed, and the collectors do anything in their power to block inheritance until paid.
RHSeeger 7y ago
To be fair, a $111 (100 euro) ambulance ride would not be a reasonable amount if you were paying for it outright. You're paying for the time of 2 EMTs, your share of the supplies in the ambulance, your share of the ambulance vehicle, gas. Plus you're not just paying for the time it took for your ride, you're paying for your portion of the entire day (since not all their time is utilized). Even without considering profit, that's well over $111. The fact that you're paying 100 Euro for the trip means is subsidized. Which is great, and it should be, but don't pretend 100 Euro is a reasonable price if you're actually paying for it.
- zepolen 7y ago
  No subsidy, these are for private ambulances and a result of real competition. Using an average wage in the US to be double of Europe I'd say $200 for an ambulance ride in the US is a reasonable price. Also an ambulance ride is like 20-30mins tops and within a day there can easily be 4-5 calls in a larger city - that's more than enough to be profitable.
  - mlguy456 7y ago
    Wait, are you saying that 30k/mo gross is enough to run an ambulance service?
    - zepolen 7y ago
      Easily. 2 x EMTs @ $2,000 = $4,000 / month 1 x $100,000 amublance amortized over 3 years = $3,000 / month 150 gallons gas (150 miles per day @ 30mpg) x $2.50 = $375 / month Callcenter = $500 / month Overheads = $1000 / month Supplies = $1000 / month ----- Total cost = $10,000 / month
      - mlguy456 7y ago
        Perhaps you know better, but my uneducated guess would be that just an ambulance vehicle costs 15k/month, then every medic costs 10k/month at least and there will be expensive weird things like commercial insurance that costs another 5k/month. 100k/month might make you break even in the long run.
buzzerbetrayed 7y ago
Why is how many times you can fly between two places relevant to how much medical bills cost? All you did was choose a metric that makes your argument appear more reasonable, even though they are entirely unrelated. You also seem to be arguing that Europe healthcare is cheaper and therefore better, even though it obviously is not that simple (I'm sure you know it isn't that simple. That's just how your reply comes across). For example, if I get cancer I would much rather be in the United States, despite the problems with their health care system, simply because I have a higher chance of living.
- zepolen 7y ago
  Except the US has a much higher cancer mortality rate than almost all of Europe: https://www.wcrf.org/dietandcancer/cancer-trends/data-cancer-frequency-country https://www.wcrf.org/dietandcancer/cancer-trends/data-cancer...
  - dtwest 7y ago
    That doesn't prove anything about hospital quality. From your source: "Around 40% of cancer cases could be prevented by reducing exposure to cancer risk factors including diet, nutrition and physical activity". Americans live a lifestyle (fast food, less walking) that leads to a much higher risk of cancer than Europeans, the difference in mortality rate is mostly explained by this. Another way of thinking about this, looking at your data, do you really think Australia has the worst hospitals in the world because they have the highest cancer rate?

ceejayoz 7y ago

My wife had a three day stay in hospital and pins surgically placed in her shattered foot while we were on vacation in Australia in the early 2000s. $700 - and that was the non-resident price.