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> I was just responding to somebody's sad claim that "life is meaningless." Then you completely missed the point of what forensic wrote, because he did not cla

> I was just responding to somebody's sad claim that "life is meaningless." Then you completely missed the point of what forensic wrote, because he did not claim that. The problem with articles such as this, which is what both forensic and me addressed, is that a lot of people claim that time spent on video games is wasted, that time spent in any sort of rat race is bad, without any sort of backing for that claim. And if you don't back the argument you can flip it, which is what me and forensic did.

javert 16y ago
No, you're wrong. The author's statement amounted to: "WoW is meaningless for me and negatively impacts my life." forensic's statment amount to: "Well, who's to say life itself is any more meaningful?" My response is: "Wait a minute, I think it is meaningful." And I pointed out that you can achieve happiness in life (and by that I mean genuine self-esteem, not some temporary hedonistic pleasure like you get from playing a video game). You're also wrong in that backing WAS offered for the claim that time spent on WoW is wasteful; the blogger talks about that a lot, e.g. how you end up just getting more gear so you can go to a bigger dungeon and get more gear, and how spending too much time on WoW blocks you from pursuing major goals in real life (like becoming a paramedic).
- forensic 16y ago
  Meaning is probably the single most subjective concept that exists. You can't tell someone else what is meaningful for them, which is what the OP is doing and you are implying. I guarantee there are people who find WOW to be far more meaningful than building a career in the health field. That's the nature of humanity. We all find meaning in strange and unique ways.
  - javert 16y ago
    The way we're using "meaning" in this discussion is improper, and I regret not pointing that out earlier. It's improper because the word is not (and cannot) be defined. I guarantee there are people who find WOW to be far more meaningful than building a career in the health field. I can't argue that because "meaningful" is not well-defined. However, I can make a related statement, as follows. Building a career in the real world is far more valuable to a person, as a human being, than building a "career" in WoW, because it allows a person to achieve real values in life--e.g. monetary wealth, respect from peers, self-sufficiency, and ultimately self-esteem and the genuine, pervasive kind of happiness that self-esteem makes possible. Wow does not allow one to achieve those values.
    - klbarry 16y ago
      " monetary wealth, respect from peers, self-sufficiency, and ultimately self-esteem and the genuine, pervasive kind of happiness that self-esteem makes possible" Why are these things valuable? If we define valuable as worth a lot of money, obviously they are. If we define it as extremely useful or important, then that's just a judgement call again, no?
      - javert 16y ago
        You're making the point that in order to figure out what (if anything) is valuable, we need to have a standard of value, and you're absolutely right. Now, there are lots of potential standards of value. e.g. "immediate pleasure" (hedonism); what's good for others (altruism); etc. The proper standard of value is: what is good or bad for an individual's life, as a human being. So, that's how I'm defining "valuable" here. Why is that the proper standard of value? Well, any deviation from that standard is going to be destructive to life, whereas following it will sustain life. Living successfully is a prerequisite (and the primary component) of happiness (in the fullest sense of the word--i.e. a non-contradictory enjoyment of being alive and all that that entails). My statements here are not to be taken as standing on their own. There are lots of questions to ask. (A basic one would be: How can you claim to actually know anything, in the first place?.) I'm not going to try to present the full philosophical justification (i.e. present and validate an entire philosophical system), but it's out there if you look.

javert 16y ago

No, you're wrong. The author's statement amounted to: "WoW is meaningless for me and negatively impacts my life." forensic's statment amount to: "Well, who's to say life itself is any more meaningful?" My response is: "Wait a minute, I think it is meaningful." And I pointed out that you can achieve happiness in life (and by that I mean genuine self-esteem, not some temporary hedonistic pleasure like you get from playing a video game). You're also wrong in that backing WAS offered for the claim that time spent on WoW is wasteful; the blogger talks about that a lot, e.g. how you end up just getting more gear so you can go to a bigger dungeon and get more gear, and how spending too much time on WoW blocks you from pursuing major goals in real life (like becoming a paramedic).

forensic 16y ago
Meaning is probably the single most subjective concept that exists. You can't tell someone else what is meaningful for them, which is what the OP is doing and you are implying. I guarantee there are people who find WOW to be far more meaningful than building a career in the health field. That's the nature of humanity. We all find meaning in strange and unique ways.
- javert 16y ago
  The way we're using "meaning" in this discussion is improper, and I regret not pointing that out earlier. It's improper because the word is not (and cannot) be defined. I guarantee there are people who find WOW to be far more meaningful than building a career in the health field. I can't argue that because "meaningful" is not well-defined. However, I can make a related statement, as follows. Building a career in the real world is far more valuable to a person, as a human being, than building a "career" in WoW, because it allows a person to achieve real values in life--e.g. monetary wealth, respect from peers, self-sufficiency, and ultimately self-esteem and the genuine, pervasive kind of happiness that self-esteem makes possible. Wow does not allow one to achieve those values.
  - klbarry 16y ago
    " monetary wealth, respect from peers, self-sufficiency, and ultimately self-esteem and the genuine, pervasive kind of happiness that self-esteem makes possible" Why are these things valuable? If we define valuable as worth a lot of money, obviously they are. If we define it as extremely useful or important, then that's just a judgement call again, no?
    - javert 16y ago
      You're making the point that in order to figure out what (if anything) is valuable, we need to have a standard of value, and you're absolutely right. Now, there are lots of potential standards of value. e.g. "immediate pleasure" (hedonism); what's good for others (altruism); etc. The proper standard of value is: what is good or bad for an individual's life, as a human being. So, that's how I'm defining "valuable" here. Why is that the proper standard of value? Well, any deviation from that standard is going to be destructive to life, whereas following it will sustain life. Living successfully is a prerequisite (and the primary component) of happiness (in the fullest sense of the word--i.e. a non-contradictory enjoyment of being alive and all that that entails). My statements here are not to be taken as standing on their own. There are lots of questions to ask. (A basic one would be: How can you claim to actually know anything, in the first place?.) I'm not going to try to present the full philosophical justification (i.e. present and validate an entire philosophical system), but it's out there if you look.