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> fork It'll probably be a closed source fork. Defeating the whole purpose of Librem.

by dastx 7y ago

mbowcutt 7y ago
I think the Librem5 will have a CC-by-SA 4.0 license, aka copyleft, so it'd have to be open source.
- meruru 7y ago
  That's a weird statement. Why would they use a CC license, rather than a software license like the GPL?
  - swiley 7y ago
    Have you read the GPL? It makes very little sense for hardware (it’s actually a pretty weird license full of all kinds of software specific things. “Linking” to “operating system components” for example doesn’t make them a derivative work, whatever all that means. There’s quite a lot of other stuff.) The argument for using the GPL when creating copyleft software is that most copyleft software uses the GPL and you want everything to have a compatible license, that’s not really the case for hardware.
ptx 7y ago
GNOME and Linux are under the GPL. So are phosh (Purism's shell), Chatty (their messaging app) and probably a lot of other components. So you can't make a closed fork.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Linux kernel is GPL. Now try to get the right version sold with an Android phone.
  - ryukafalz 7y ago
    It often seems to take some persistence, but typically it is possible to get the kernel sources. The manufacturers can drag their feet for a while but ultimately they have to give it to you. Compare that to the rest of the software on an Android device; you'll have no luck convincing Samsung to give you the source to any of the UI bits on their phones, for example. The GPL is a huge improvement in this regard.
  - justinclift 7y ago
    Semi-related, but apparently Win10 WSL now includes the Linux kernel. Being as that's GPL, it seems strange the GPL license isn't somehow "virally" infecting windows, making other things OSS.
    - mises 7y ago
      They have released the source for their fork: https://github.com/microsoft/WSL2-Linux-Kernel https://github.com/microsoft/WSL2-Linux-Kernel. Linux specifically does not use the GPLv3 for exactly this reason. rms et al. complained about "tivoization", which came from tivo shipping boxes that contained the code but were locked down. Linus didn't really care as much, or at least not enough to re-license. He didn't like the restriction, and new that such a provision would prevent exactly what MS is now doing: allowing more freedom for the users.
      - justinclift 7y ago
        Thanks, that's useful info. :)
      - bubblethink 7y ago
        That's orthogonal though. WSL would be fine even with GPLv3. It runs on a hypervisor. WSL poses no restrictions on modifying the source of the kernel. You can fork, rebuild and run. You can't on a tivo device.
        mises 7y ago
        Not exactly. Microsoft is trying to expand functionality in certain places to allow things like CUDA acceleration, AF_PACKET support, and other important hardware-y things that WSL can't handle. You're right that you can run a different kernel, but Microsoft has modified theirs for WSL. For that reason, they have to release modifications.
  - opencl 7y ago
    It's usually quite easy, they're often on Github though some companies host them themselves. There are a few companies (looking at you Lenovo) who release partial/non-working sources but most vendors do comply with the GPL. https://github.com/nokia-dev/android_device_nokia_sdm660-common https://github.com/nokia-dev/android_device_nokia_sdm660-com... https://github.com/OnePlusOSS/android_kernel_oneplus_sdm845 https://github.com/OnePlusOSS/android_kernel_oneplus_sdm845 https://github.com/MiCode/Xiaomi_Kernel_OpenSource https://github.com/MiCode/Xiaomi_Kernel_OpenSource https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/ZenFone/ZS630KL/ASUS_I01WD_kernel_tar.zip https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/ZenFone/ZS630KL/ASUS_I01W... https://android.googlesource.com/kernel/msm/+/android-9.0.0_r0.31/ https://android.googlesource.com/kernel/msm/+/android-9.0.0_... https://consumer.huawei.com/en/opensource/ https://consumer.huawei.com/en/opensource/ etc.
m463 7y ago
> > fork > It'll probably be a closed source fork. Defeating the whole purpose of Librem. wouldn't that also defeat sales too? might not, system76 comes off like purism and sells well, but I believe they have hardware that requires binary blobs.

> fork It'll probably be a closed source fork. Defeating the whole purpose of Librem.

by dastx 7y ago

> fork It'll probably be a closed source fork. Defeating the whole purpose of Librem.

mbowcutt 7y ago

I think the Librem5 will have a CC-by-SA 4.0 license, aka copyleft, so it'd have to be open source.

meruru 7y ago
That's a weird statement. Why would they use a CC license, rather than a software license like the GPL?
- swiley 7y ago
  Have you read the GPL? It makes very little sense for hardware (it’s actually a pretty weird license full of all kinds of software specific things. “Linking” to “operating system components” for example doesn’t make them a derivative work, whatever all that means. There’s quite a lot of other stuff.) The argument for using the GPL when creating copyleft software is that most copyleft software uses the GPL and you want everything to have a compatible license, that’s not really the case for hardware.

ptx 7y ago

GNOME and Linux are under the GPL. So are phosh (Purism's shell), Chatty (their messaging app) and probably a lot of other components. So you can't make a closed fork.

pjmlp 7y ago
Linux kernel is GPL. Now try to get the right version sold with an Android phone.
- ryukafalz 7y ago
  It often seems to take some persistence, but typically it is possible to get the kernel sources. The manufacturers can drag their feet for a while but ultimately they have to give it to you. Compare that to the rest of the software on an Android device; you'll have no luck convincing Samsung to give you the source to any of the UI bits on their phones, for example. The GPL is a huge improvement in this regard.
- justinclift 7y ago
  Semi-related, but apparently Win10 WSL now includes the Linux kernel. Being as that's GPL, it seems strange the GPL license isn't somehow "virally" infecting windows, making other things OSS.
  - mises 7y ago
    They have released the source for their fork: https://github.com/microsoft/WSL2-Linux-Kernel https://github.com/microsoft/WSL2-Linux-Kernel. Linux specifically does not use the GPLv3 for exactly this reason. rms et al. complained about "tivoization", which came from tivo shipping boxes that contained the code but were locked down. Linus didn't really care as much, or at least not enough to re-license. He didn't like the restriction, and new that such a provision would prevent exactly what MS is now doing: allowing more freedom for the users.
    - justinclift 7y ago
      Thanks, that's useful info. :)
    - bubblethink 7y ago
      That's orthogonal though. WSL would be fine even with GPLv3. It runs on a hypervisor. WSL poses no restrictions on modifying the source of the kernel. You can fork, rebuild and run. You can't on a tivo device.
      - mises 7y ago
        Not exactly. Microsoft is trying to expand functionality in certain places to allow things like CUDA acceleration, AF_PACKET support, and other important hardware-y things that WSL can't handle. You're right that you can run a different kernel, but Microsoft has modified theirs for WSL. For that reason, they have to release modifications.
- opencl 7y ago
  It's usually quite easy, they're often on Github though some companies host them themselves. There are a few companies (looking at you Lenovo) who release partial/non-working sources but most vendors do comply with the GPL. https://github.com/nokia-dev/android_device_nokia_sdm660-common https://github.com/nokia-dev/android_device_nokia_sdm660-com... https://github.com/OnePlusOSS/android_kernel_oneplus_sdm845 https://github.com/OnePlusOSS/android_kernel_oneplus_sdm845 https://github.com/MiCode/Xiaomi_Kernel_OpenSource https://github.com/MiCode/Xiaomi_Kernel_OpenSource https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/ZenFone/ZS630KL/ASUS_I01WD_kernel_tar.zip https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/ZenFone/ZS630KL/ASUS_I01W... https://android.googlesource.com/kernel/msm/+/android-9.0.0_r0.31/ https://android.googlesource.com/kernel/msm/+/android-9.0.0_... https://consumer.huawei.com/en/opensource/ https://consumer.huawei.com/en/opensource/ etc.

m463 7y ago

> > fork > It'll probably be a closed source fork. Defeating the whole purpose of Librem. wouldn't that also defeat sales too? might not, system76 comes off like purism and sells well, but I believe they have hardware that requires binary blobs.