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I would like to see how the numbers stack up to other countries that have a better work life balance. Here's my hypothesis - the work life "balance" in the U.S

I would like to see how the numbers stack up to other countries that have a better work life balance. Here's my hypothesis - the work life "balance" in the U.S. is incredibly messed up - like real bad. The assumption most people make is "Let's work real hard while we are young so we have all the money we need when we are older. We will have fun then". So right out of college, with six figures in debt, people are working 40+ hours/week (typically 60+ hours/week), working weekends without blinking an eye. Everyone's doing it, it's the norm, so what's wrong with doing what everyone is doing. No one has time to make meaningful relationships. Most people spend less than 3 years at a job, so what's the point anyways. You can't get a good salary hike without quitting your existing and joining a new company. That model bleeds into one's personal life as well - people are so busy working hard that they miss the opportunities to build a meaningful relationship with their spouse and children. Guilt sets in so the spouse and children get showered with expensive gifts and vacations but they have nothing much to talk about during those vacations either so they spend most of their time visiting random places, taking tons of photos, posting them on social and handling the barrage of comments they get for those photos. The emptiness does not resolve though - and when it gets intolerable the spouses file for divorce. Maybe it will work out with someone else. Once they retire - they have two big problems: 1. yes, they do have money, but don't know what to do with it 2. they also don't know what to do with the free hours they now have available! As a result, they hand over their money to fund managers who proceed to loose all or most of that money because they are sure they can beat the market. In the meantime, they have been so frigging busy most of their adult life with the one thing they did for their employers that they did not develop social skills (outside the fake "professional" facade) or general skills - and everyone's so fake that it gets down under your skin because deep inside you can feel the fakeness so you hesitate to make more social ties. With the money depleted and being bored out of their minds, what's the next step? It's easy to blame everyone else for this, but the reality is the time is past for deep introspection.

neogodless 7y ago
If I understand you correctly, we don't have our priorities straight. Money and consumption is put above relationships and growth. (I almost said "experiences" but, in my opinion, people use that term to justify shallow, expensive pursuits like traveling so they can show off how great their lives are. I think experience is valuable, particular leaving your comfort zone so that you can adapt, learn and grow.) Instead of leaning on relationships to provide for each other, and enduring hardships together, we want to individually achieve for ourselves, and remove any sense of inconvenience or boredom from our lives.
- subhobroto 7y ago
  Thank you for taking your time to read my comment and then responding to it! I completely understand and agree with the spirit of your response but here's my pedantic take on the specific ways you put it because I have heard it many times before and I do feel being pedantic about these will force you to introspect further. I feel deeply about this and have seen not only people's life change for the better when they go down this path of introspection, but people around them, so bear with me. > If I understand you correctly, we don't have our priorities straight. We are all very smart people. We do have our priorities straight. The issue seems to be that these are extremely short term priorities that are, most of the time counter productive for the wellbeing of a person over a span of 50 or so years. Its like getting really good and efficient at digging your own grave. You see, you're going to die eventually, so why not work hard at ensuring that your final resting place is as nice and comfortable as you can possibly make it? > Money and consumption is put above relationships and growth Of course and it's good for the economy. Think about it - without money and consumption, we would be in deep recession! So what exactly are we missing? > to justify shallow, expensive pursuits like traveling so they can show off how great their lives are Travelling is extremely valuable and educational. It also means different things to different people. However, I believe, the mainstream interpretation of travelling seems to be a vacuous method of distraction from the emptiness of the regular grind. Now, at best, I think that's extremely sad and at worst, can force someone deeper into depression. > Instead of leaning on relationships to provide for each other, and enduring hardships together, we want to individually achieve for ourselves, and remove any sense of inconvenience or boredom from our lives. Sorry this comment is already very large but without being more pedantic, you have made excellent points. The last bit is simply brilliant. Inconvenience is such a great teacher and enabler! You're either a successful entrepreneur or well on your way to being one. I really enjoyed this discussion and you have added a lot for me to think about. Thank you!
that_jojo 7y ago
This is the least hacker news comment of all time and I love it. Maybe this weird era of SV-type a-social-life-and-sleep-is-for-pussies work mentality is actually starting the begin of its end. Or not. Maybe we're fucked.
- dang 7y ago
  That's a misperception of Hacker News. The majority of this community identifies strongly against the clichéd view you're describing. It lost its currency in SV years ago too, so far as I can tell. By the way, the last time I ran the numbers only about 10% of HN users turned out to be in the Bay Area.
  - subhobroto 7y ago
    Agreed Daniel! > Maybe this weird era of SV-type a-social-life-and-sleep-is-for-pussies work mentality is actually starting the begin of its end. > Or not. Maybe we're fucked Well, we are very smart here. We have all worked through challenges, adversity and naysayers and landed on the top. However, we still have a long way to go. We still have to ask ourselves - so what's next? Each of us run FIRE simulations on our wealth, set our objectives on how much money to make next quarter so our conservative withdrawal rate on retirement still gets us the money we need to enjoy life. Why don't we run simulations on what happens when we get there? What do we do then? Who all do we spend it with? We can engineer complex systems that scale to a million users: we sure can engineer our own lives to scale to a dozen or so people if we give our future equal priority as the JIRA tickets on our plate this week. Surely?
  - qwsxyh 7y ago
    If the majority of the community identifies against it why is it constantly upvoted?
    - that_jojo 7y ago
      Bizarrely, I was at +4 moments ago and now sit at -1
projectileboy 7y ago
Currently at the tail end of watching my dad (now 87) go through this whole cycle, exactly as you described. I would encourage everyone to read what you just wrote and think really hard about where you fit into this narrative, and how you might step out of it.
- subhobroto 7y ago
  Hey there! I'm really very sorry to hear about your dad, but tell you what - I did not jiust think about this all on my own. It's an outcome of reflecting off input from hundreds of other people with the same story over and over again. Once I started to write on Quora, I had the fortune of getting in touch with thousands of people. It was like magic and I was able to live through the lives of these people all around the U.S. and a pattern started to emerge. Back to your dad - you sound resigned about it No. He's your dad. Help him. That will soon enable him to help others. Dont give up! It's never too late. otherwise you will really regret the outcome for the rest of your life.
mcgrath_sh 7y ago
I agree whole heartedly. When we were kids, we knew everyone on my block and people didn’t move much. We could tell neighbors we were going on vacation or when something happened neighbors were looking out and we could run around freely. My mom would talk with older neighbors when they were out doing yard work. Due to continued movement for careers, there isn’t long term stability in community like there used to be. Another factor, as I stated in another comment, is families don’t live as close as they used to. Most of the families I grew up around have at least one kid in a city 4+ hours away. Before, one cousin could take Mom and Aunt Sue to an event and then other cousin could do it two weeks later due to everyone (or at least Mom and Aunt Sue) living close to each other. Siblings could jointly care for an ailing parent. Now, those burdens tend to do fall on an increasingly small percentage of the next generation of the family because everyone is a half day of travel or more away. (EDIT: And to note, I didn’t grow up in the middle of nowhere. I grew up in a suburb of Pittsburgh that is a 15 minute drive to downtown. I wonder if it is an even larger attrition rate for small towns.) Finally, grandparents played a big role in raising me. I was with my Nana nearly daily through high school when my parents were working or busy. I saw my other grandparents weekly. Now most of my friends are grateful to be living within an hour or so of one parent. You know who else that kind of interaction is good for? The grandparents! My Nana wasn’t as lonely because she interacted with or was around my siblings and I daily. When you are hours away, a 5 minute skype call every few days isn’t the same.
DanBC 7y ago
> I would like to see how the numbers stack up to other countries that have a better work life balance. The numbers are similar, because this article has chosen to use a misleading presentation of the data. The rate is high. But the numbers of people dying by suicide over the age of 85 is very small. The reason the rate is so high is because there are so few people over the age 85. Of course, any death is a tragedy, and most suicide is preventable, especially in groups who are in close contact with health care providers, and so we should be working to prevent suicides in this group. But if you look at the actual numbers you'll see many more thousands of people in the younger ages dying by suicide.
IdiocyInAction 7y ago
> I would like to see how the numbers stack up to other countries that have a better work life balance. From a western European country with way more holidays and worker's rights than the US here. It's just as bad; I immediately found 2 studies and 3 newspaper articles detailing similar or worse problems. I think it's actually harder to make friends here, because people are way more reserved than in the US and it's hard to become a member of local communities. I'm 21 and I've been lonely my whole life.
- subhobroto 7y ago
  > I'm 21 and I've been lonely my whole life. If your loneliness bothers you, I recommend the following two things: 1. Get clinical help. Immediately. Take this very very seriously. Depending on your social setup, you might feel this is an insult, but I do not mean it that way, so please, follow this input 2. You write well. I looked at your comments and they are all very insightful and enjoyable. If you are unable to find people who enjoy your company, you're probably looking at the wrong place. I have recommended people to blog. You will be surprised how many good friends you can make this way. However, blogging attracts negative people too. It comes with the territory. For example, you comment from 4 months ago about Art and how modern journalists are failing at their job was an interesting read as was your concerns about the GDPR
opportune 7y ago
I agree this is a common archetype these days but it's still not a large part of the population - probably less than 20%, maybe less than 10%. Most people don't have six figures of college debt nor do they make enough money / have the kind of job that demands more more more in exchange for making you rich in your 40s+. Also this type of person has existed for a century at least, basically since the economy corporatized and white collar career oriented jobs became common I think another issue is that those without career oriented / rich lifestyles live in a society that is not designed for them. Almost all land in areas where people live is privatized, so the area they can realistically use for social activities is limited to mostly parks, and in the US getting most places quickly requires some form of private transport. Digital media gives the most entertainment/$ so a lot of poorer people actually spend more time in front of screens than rich people, moreso for children. And much of that time is spent on social media which makes many people feel insecure or inferior. Further, most people don't have any sense of progress or improvement or even purpose in their lives - which can be a foreign feeling to those of us who are better off. Religion used to be a cornerstone of people's lives, and is quickly losing popularity. Social mobility in the US is very low, and most people don't have any meaningful sense of "career progression".
- qrs 7y ago
  Great comment. Especially the ratio of > Digital media gives the most entertainment/$

neogodless 7y ago

If I understand you correctly, we don't have our priorities straight. Money and consumption is put above relationships and growth. (I almost said "experiences" but, in my opinion, people use that term to justify shallow, expensive pursuits like traveling so they can show off how great their lives are. I think experience is valuable, particular leaving your comfort zone so that you can adapt, learn and grow.) Instead of leaning on relationships to provide for each other, and enduring hardships together, we want to individually achieve for ourselves, and remove any sense of inconvenience or boredom from our lives.

subhobroto 7y ago
Thank you for taking your time to read my comment and then responding to it! I completely understand and agree with the spirit of your response but here's my pedantic take on the specific ways you put it because I have heard it many times before and I do feel being pedantic about these will force you to introspect further. I feel deeply about this and have seen not only people's life change for the better when they go down this path of introspection, but people around them, so bear with me. > If I understand you correctly, we don't have our priorities straight. We are all very smart people. We do have our priorities straight. The issue seems to be that these are extremely short term priorities that are, most of the time counter productive for the wellbeing of a person over a span of 50 or so years. Its like getting really good and efficient at digging your own grave. You see, you're going to die eventually, so why not work hard at ensuring that your final resting place is as nice and comfortable as you can possibly make it? > Money and consumption is put above relationships and growth Of course and it's good for the economy. Think about it - without money and consumption, we would be in deep recession! So what exactly are we missing? > to justify shallow, expensive pursuits like traveling so they can show off how great their lives are Travelling is extremely valuable and educational. It also means different things to different people. However, I believe, the mainstream interpretation of travelling seems to be a vacuous method of distraction from the emptiness of the regular grind. Now, at best, I think that's extremely sad and at worst, can force someone deeper into depression. > Instead of leaning on relationships to provide for each other, and enduring hardships together, we want to individually achieve for ourselves, and remove any sense of inconvenience or boredom from our lives. Sorry this comment is already very large but without being more pedantic, you have made excellent points. The last bit is simply brilliant. Inconvenience is such a great teacher and enabler! You're either a successful entrepreneur or well on your way to being one. I really enjoyed this discussion and you have added a lot for me to think about. Thank you!

that_jojo 7y ago

This is the least hacker news comment of all time and I love it. Maybe this weird era of SV-type a-social-life-and-sleep-is-for-pussies work mentality is actually starting the begin of its end. Or not. Maybe we're fucked.

dang 7y ago
That's a misperception of Hacker News. The majority of this community identifies strongly against the clichéd view you're describing. It lost its currency in SV years ago too, so far as I can tell. By the way, the last time I ran the numbers only about 10% of HN users turned out to be in the Bay Area.
- subhobroto 7y ago
  Agreed Daniel! > Maybe this weird era of SV-type a-social-life-and-sleep-is-for-pussies work mentality is actually starting the begin of its end. > Or not. Maybe we're fucked Well, we are very smart here. We have all worked through challenges, adversity and naysayers and landed on the top. However, we still have a long way to go. We still have to ask ourselves - so what's next? Each of us run FIRE simulations on our wealth, set our objectives on how much money to make next quarter so our conservative withdrawal rate on retirement still gets us the money we need to enjoy life. Why don't we run simulations on what happens when we get there? What do we do then? Who all do we spend it with? We can engineer complex systems that scale to a million users: we sure can engineer our own lives to scale to a dozen or so people if we give our future equal priority as the JIRA tickets on our plate this week. Surely?
- qwsxyh 7y ago
  If the majority of the community identifies against it why is it constantly upvoted?
  - that_jojo 7y ago
    Bizarrely, I was at +4 moments ago and now sit at -1

projectileboy 7y ago

Currently at the tail end of watching my dad (now 87) go through this whole cycle, exactly as you described. I would encourage everyone to read what you just wrote and think really hard about where you fit into this narrative, and how you might step out of it.

subhobroto 7y ago
Hey there! I'm really very sorry to hear about your dad, but tell you what - I did not jiust think about this all on my own. It's an outcome of reflecting off input from hundreds of other people with the same story over and over again. Once I started to write on Quora, I had the fortune of getting in touch with thousands of people. It was like magic and I was able to live through the lives of these people all around the U.S. and a pattern started to emerge. Back to your dad - you sound resigned about it No. He's your dad. Help him. That will soon enable him to help others. Dont give up! It's never too late. otherwise you will really regret the outcome for the rest of your life.

mcgrath_sh 7y ago

I agree whole heartedly. When we were kids, we knew everyone on my block and people didn’t move much. We could tell neighbors we were going on vacation or when something happened neighbors were looking out and we could run around freely. My mom would talk with older neighbors when they were out doing yard work. Due to continued movement for careers, there isn’t long term stability in community like there used to be. Another factor, as I stated in another comment, is families don’t live as close as they used to. Most of the families I grew up around have at least one kid in a city 4+ hours away. Before, one cousin could take Mom and Aunt Sue to an event and then other cousin could do it two weeks later due to everyone (or at least Mom and Aunt Sue) living close to each other. Siblings could jointly care for an ailing parent. Now, those burdens tend to do fall on an increasingly small percentage of the next generation of the family because everyone is a half day of travel or more away. (EDIT: And to note, I didn’t grow up in the middle of nowhere. I grew up in a suburb of Pittsburgh that is a 15 minute drive to downtown. I wonder if it is an even larger attrition rate for small towns.) Finally, grandparents played a big role in raising me. I was with my Nana nearly daily through high school when my parents were working or busy. I saw my other grandparents weekly. Now most of my friends are grateful to be living within an hour or so of one parent. You know who else that kind of interaction is good for? The grandparents! My Nana wasn’t as lonely because she interacted with or was around my siblings and I daily. When you are hours away, a 5 minute skype call every few days isn’t the same.

DanBC 7y ago

> I would like to see how the numbers stack up to other countries that have a better work life balance. The numbers are similar, because this article has chosen to use a misleading presentation of the data. The rate is high. But the numbers of people dying by suicide over the age of 85 is very small. The reason the rate is so high is because there are so few people over the age 85. Of course, any death is a tragedy, and most suicide is preventable, especially in groups who are in close contact with health care providers, and so we should be working to prevent suicides in this group. But if you look at the actual numbers you'll see many more thousands of people in the younger ages dying by suicide.

IdiocyInAction 7y ago

> I would like to see how the numbers stack up to other countries that have a better work life balance. From a western European country with way more holidays and worker's rights than the US here. It's just as bad; I immediately found 2 studies and 3 newspaper articles detailing similar or worse problems. I think it's actually harder to make friends here, because people are way more reserved than in the US and it's hard to become a member of local communities. I'm 21 and I've been lonely my whole life.

subhobroto 7y ago
> I'm 21 and I've been lonely my whole life. If your loneliness bothers you, I recommend the following two things: 1. Get clinical help. Immediately. Take this very very seriously. Depending on your social setup, you might feel this is an insult, but I do not mean it that way, so please, follow this input 2. You write well. I looked at your comments and they are all very insightful and enjoyable. If you are unable to find people who enjoy your company, you're probably looking at the wrong place. I have recommended people to blog. You will be surprised how many good friends you can make this way. However, blogging attracts negative people too. It comes with the territory. For example, you comment from 4 months ago about Art and how modern journalists are failing at their job was an interesting read as was your concerns about the GDPR

opportune 7y ago

I agree this is a common archetype these days but it's still not a large part of the population - probably less than 20%, maybe less than 10%. Most people don't have six figures of college debt nor do they make enough money / have the kind of job that demands more more more in exchange for making you rich in your 40s+. Also this type of person has existed for a century at least, basically since the economy corporatized and white collar career oriented jobs became common I think another issue is that those without career oriented / rich lifestyles live in a society that is not designed for them. Almost all land in areas where people live is privatized, so the area they can realistically use for social activities is limited to mostly parks, and in the US getting most places quickly requires some form of private transport. Digital media gives the most entertainment/$ so a lot of poorer people actually spend more time in front of screens than rich people, moreso for children. And much of that time is spent on social media which makes many people feel insecure or inferior. Further, most people don't have any sense of progress or improvement or even purpose in their lives - which can be a foreign feeling to those of us who are better off. Religion used to be a cornerstone of people's lives, and is quickly losing popularity. Social mobility in the US is very low, and most people don't have any meaningful sense of "career progression".

qrs 7y ago
Great comment. Especially the ratio of > Digital media gives the most entertainment/$