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> In 2014 they were all fired. Their strategy for testing Windows is now three fold: - Devs are expected to test their own code now I was at a company that did

> In 2014 they were all fired. Their strategy for testing Windows is now three fold: - Devs are expected to test their own code now I was at a company that did the same (at roughly the same time) - this was a terrible mistake. But it's very hard to discuss, because any dev complaining sounds like they want to avoid testing. Dear manager that I hope reads this: QAs, at least the ones under discussion, aren't just mindless pressers-of-buttons. They have a skillset and domain knowledge just like (but distinct from) devs. A dev should absolutely test their own code...but they will do so with their domain knowledge which will be by definition more limited than someone for whom such knowledge is a key part of the job. Devs should test so that only problems worthy of the QA skillset make it to the QAs. Asking devs to do QA work is asking them to build skills that are not their strength, and that will come at the cost of their strengths. It is asking them to build skills they probably don't enjoy, and that will come at the cost of their job satisfaction. Having devs do QA work is as bad as devs that test nothing and leave it all for the QAs - it's an inefficient and ineffective use of resources and time. There is nothing wrong with encouraging Devs to deliver higher quality code to the QA/Test engs. There IS something wrong with thinking higher quality code from devs mean you don't need a QA/Test Eng.

drdeadringer 7y ago
From a recent comment around here I (re)learned that some software developers "just build to spec and they're done"; it's not their fault that some user presses a button and accidentally launches all nuclear missiles [or whatever], that wasn't stated as "don't allow it" in the spec so it's not their fault. And then QA does their good job and gets hate for saying that accidental nuclear genocide [or whatever] might be a bad thing so let's fix that before release to the customer. Sure, "code to spec and you're done". But are you actually really done? Are you sure?
bradknowles 7y ago
Firing all your QA engineers because you can make your developers do QA is like firing all your operations people because you can make your developers do operations. In either case, it's also like cutting off your left arm because you still have your right arm.
- MaxBarraclough 7y ago
  > like cutting off your left arm because you still have your right arm This ignores that it discards specialisation, not merely quantity, and that testers are generally cheaper than developers.
  - solstice 7y ago
    Re: specialization. Most people aren't ambidextrous afaik and will have a hard time retraining to do things with another hand. So I think the metaphor still holds
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  It's like firing all your nurses and having expensive doctors work overtime. In other words, silly.
  - Spooky23 7y ago
    ...and short term lucrative. Long term, doctors aren’t nurses and patients suffer. Eventually someone dies.
  - LilBytes 7y ago
    This is such a perfect analogy for where I feel DevOps fails in some implementations. My experience is across three different companies now, and in the first two (not my current employer who... still do it wrong but it's the best I've seen), they fired the Ops guys and expected the Systems Engineers\Software Engineers to take those roles. No overtime pay in either company for the extra work load that was placed on them (e.g. me) of course. So the only cost the companies incurred was productivity and the quality of work. The burden was entirely carried by the staff and to a greater degree the clients who accept a shoddier product and service. Fortunately I quit both jobs to get to where I am now, though the old timers no doubt are still working ridiculous hours and are too scared to ask them selves "can I find better else where?".
sally1620 7y ago
Testing your own code is quite a conflict of interest. Of course you are going to make sure that all your tests pass. And argue that the corner cases that you didn't test will never happen in production.

drdeadringer 7y ago

From a recent comment around here I (re)learned that some software developers "just build to spec and they're done"; it's not their fault that some user presses a button and accidentally launches all nuclear missiles [or whatever], that wasn't stated as "don't allow it" in the spec so it's not their fault. And then QA does their good job and gets hate for saying that accidental nuclear genocide [or whatever] might be a bad thing so let's fix that before release to the customer. Sure, "code to spec and you're done". But are you actually really done? Are you sure?

bradknowles 7y ago

Firing all your QA engineers because you can make your developers do QA is like firing all your operations people because you can make your developers do operations. In either case, it's also like cutting off your left arm because you still have your right arm.

MaxBarraclough 7y ago
> like cutting off your left arm because you still have your right arm This ignores that it discards specialisation, not merely quantity, and that testers are generally cheaper than developers.
- solstice 7y ago
  Re: specialization. Most people aren't ambidextrous afaik and will have a hard time retraining to do things with another hand. So I think the metaphor still holds
mixmastamyk 7y ago
It's like firing all your nurses and having expensive doctors work overtime. In other words, silly.
- Spooky23 7y ago
  ...and short term lucrative. Long term, doctors aren’t nurses and patients suffer. Eventually someone dies.
- LilBytes 7y ago
  This is such a perfect analogy for where I feel DevOps fails in some implementations. My experience is across three different companies now, and in the first two (not my current employer who... still do it wrong but it's the best I've seen), they fired the Ops guys and expected the Systems Engineers\Software Engineers to take those roles. No overtime pay in either company for the extra work load that was placed on them (e.g. me) of course. So the only cost the companies incurred was productivity and the quality of work. The burden was entirely carried by the staff and to a greater degree the clients who accept a shoddier product and service. Fortunately I quit both jobs to get to where I am now, though the old timers no doubt are still working ridiculous hours and are too scared to ask them selves "can I find better else where?".

sally1620 7y ago

Testing your own code is quite a conflict of interest. Of course you are going to make sure that all your tests pass. And argue that the corner cases that you didn't test will never happen in production.