5 ms·

Doesn't shock me one bit. I worked for General Assembly ~5 years ago, and they were really serious about getting and staying on top of all the state guidelines.

by tibbon 7y ago

Doesn't shock me one bit. I worked for General Assembly ~5 years ago, and they were really serious about getting and staying on top of all the state guidelines. I got the sense that we were the only school taking that seriously at the time. The only thing that shocks me is that we haven't seen such earlier. I don't have a strong opinion about if such things should be regulated or not, but I do know that there's a lot of people who have just slapped together programs to ride a money wave, and offer relatively little in exchange and it's hard to vet the places by yourself.

napoleond 7y ago
> I do know that there's a lot of people who have just slapped together programs to ride a money wave, and offer relatively little in exchange It's not clear if you're intending to criticize Lambda School in particular here, but given the context that's how it comes across. If that wasn't your intention, it might be worth clarifying your comment; otherwise it might be worth providing some supporting evidence. I'm not associated with Lambda School, but am a fan precisely because they have always struck me as a really sincere organization that works hard to maximize value for their students.
- tibbon 7y ago
  This definitely isn't a slap at Lambda School. From what I've heard they are fine, and their response on this thread shows they care and are working on things. At this point I'm far less familiar with the market than I was several years ago. I remember dozens of places popping up nearly overnight and hearing horror stories from students - Lambda wasn't one of those.
mieseratte 7y ago
I'm not quite sure where I stand on the regulation vs. lack thereof when it comes to these types of operations either, but between working in a hiring capacity, serving as a mock-interviewer, being courted as a potential instructor, and being friends with both instructors and unsuccessful graduates (across ~5 years) from my local, now defunct code camp - there are a lot of folks who go into these programs, often going into non-trivial debt, and coming out with nothing to show for it. I will never forget watching a grown man cry in a mock interview because he could not solve FizzBuzz. I made sure they understood the relevant operators, the problem, inputs and expected output, gave ample time, kept things very casual and relaxed, and told them to ask any questions they needed. This was practice, after all. I suppose I would cry too, if I wasted months and ~20,000, likely banking on a great new life as a programmer. At the same time I've worked with great entry-level developers who used the code camps to jump from "bad" positions, e.g. young dead-ended professionals, folks with complimentary degrees but no job prospects in that industry, etc. The common thread with these folks is either prior background programming, a personal support network of programmers, or both. What kind of regulation would help for this? Mandated entrance exams with a hard-cutoff?
- saidajigumi 7y ago
  If you've spent months and $20k, now "wasted", in a school environment then I have serious questions about the school's feedback and gating systems. Why wasn't this individual given unambiguous signals about their progress (i.e. insufficient)? Even hard stops because they "failed a required class" or similar?
  - tibbon 7y ago
    Oh wow, I could talk for hours about this. From what I've heard at a lot of schools, the teachers would like to "fail" people or have higher standards for entry - but management and sales (I mean, admissions) push back hard. A student leaving is money lost. A student just not doing well afterward is something that they can write off as some glitch. They'd rather have the latter. Or they want the instructors to do superhero efforts to get the student to pass. The teachers know within a week or two who is going to have real problems with the material. The schools do not want them to put assessments in place that would have them leave, because they want money.
    - austenallred 7y ago
      That's the nice thing about the aligned incentives of Lambda School.
      - tibbon 7y ago
        I'd like to know more about that. It sounds like a great idea!
        austenallred 7y ago
        Students pay $0 unless they get hired in a software role making $50k/yr or more. So it’s not in our best interest to string someone along who can’t write fizzbuzz. We use mastery-based progression so realistically that person wouldn’t progress past the first week or two, then would repeat until he or she had mastered the content.
not_a_moth 7y ago
Yet General Assembly costs a lot and doesn't seem to help any more or less than the other schools, in my experience. It's also hard to vet because of the marketing. Makes me question said guidelines in the first place.
- tibbon 7y ago
  Agreed entirely. The guidelines help add some transparency, but still are far from perfect. I do believe without them many of these organizations would be far less transparent on their own, or the numbers would be even harder to compare. I can't remember the last time I recommended anyone attend one of these schools; perhaps never honestly. I've seen them be really useful for some people, but also really unhelpful for many more. They are a short cut, and leave people with a large amount of technical debt starting out in the form of a knowledge gap. Sometimes you need that, but I'd still recommend (if they can) someone do Course 6 at MIT any day over a 12-week course. Even without it being MIT, there's no way to fit 4 years of knowledge and experience into 12 weeks; none.

by tibbon 7y ago

napoleond 7y ago

> I do know that there's a lot of people who have just slapped together programs to ride a money wave, and offer relatively little in exchange It's not clear if you're intending to criticize Lambda School in particular here, but given the context that's how it comes across. If that wasn't your intention, it might be worth clarifying your comment; otherwise it might be worth providing some supporting evidence. I'm not associated with Lambda School, but am a fan precisely because they have always struck me as a really sincere organization that works hard to maximize value for their students.

tibbon 7y ago
This definitely isn't a slap at Lambda School. From what I've heard they are fine, and their response on this thread shows they care and are working on things. At this point I'm far less familiar with the market than I was several years ago. I remember dozens of places popping up nearly overnight and hearing horror stories from students - Lambda wasn't one of those.

mieseratte 7y ago

I'm not quite sure where I stand on the regulation vs. lack thereof when it comes to these types of operations either, but between working in a hiring capacity, serving as a mock-interviewer, being courted as a potential instructor, and being friends with both instructors and unsuccessful graduates (across ~5 years) from my local, now defunct code camp - there are a lot of folks who go into these programs, often going into non-trivial debt, and coming out with nothing to show for it. I will never forget watching a grown man cry in a mock interview because he could not solve FizzBuzz. I made sure they understood the relevant operators, the problem, inputs and expected output, gave ample time, kept things very casual and relaxed, and told them to ask any questions they needed. This was practice, after all. I suppose I would cry too, if I wasted months and ~20,000, likely banking on a great new life as a programmer. At the same time I've worked with great entry-level developers who used the code camps to jump from "bad" positions, e.g. young dead-ended professionals, folks with complimentary degrees but no job prospects in that industry, etc. The common thread with these folks is either prior background programming, a personal support network of programmers, or both. What kind of regulation would help for this? Mandated entrance exams with a hard-cutoff?

saidajigumi 7y ago
If you've spent months and $20k, now "wasted", in a school environment then I have serious questions about the school's feedback and gating systems. Why wasn't this individual given unambiguous signals about their progress (i.e. insufficient)? Even hard stops because they "failed a required class" or similar?
- tibbon 7y ago
  Oh wow, I could talk for hours about this. From what I've heard at a lot of schools, the teachers would like to "fail" people or have higher standards for entry - but management and sales (I mean, admissions) push back hard. A student leaving is money lost. A student just not doing well afterward is something that they can write off as some glitch. They'd rather have the latter. Or they want the instructors to do superhero efforts to get the student to pass. The teachers know within a week or two who is going to have real problems with the material. The schools do not want them to put assessments in place that would have them leave, because they want money.
  - austenallred 7y ago
    That's the nice thing about the aligned incentives of Lambda School.
    - tibbon 7y ago
      I'd like to know more about that. It sounds like a great idea!
      - austenallred 7y ago
        Students pay $0 unless they get hired in a software role making $50k/yr or more. So it’s not in our best interest to string someone along who can’t write fizzbuzz. We use mastery-based progression so realistically that person wouldn’t progress past the first week or two, then would repeat until he or she had mastered the content.

not_a_moth 7y ago

Yet General Assembly costs a lot and doesn't seem to help any more or less than the other schools, in my experience. It's also hard to vet because of the marketing. Makes me question said guidelines in the first place.

tibbon 7y ago
Agreed entirely. The guidelines help add some transparency, but still are far from perfect. I do believe without them many of these organizations would be far less transparent on their own, or the numbers would be even harder to compare. I can't remember the last time I recommended anyone attend one of these schools; perhaps never honestly. I've seen them be really useful for some people, but also really unhelpful for many more. They are a short cut, and leave people with a large amount of technical debt starting out in the form of a knowledge gap. Sometimes you need that, but I'd still recommend (if they can) someone do Course 6 at MIT any day over a 12-week course. Even without it being MIT, there's no way to fit 4 years of knowledge and experience into 12 weeks; none.