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You realize that sanctions also kill people through lack of supplies like medicine being available, people being unable to economically support themselves, and,

You realize that sanctions also kill people through lack of supplies like medicine being available, people being unable to economically support themselves, and, if the sanctions cause the government to collapse, all the death that results from that. So let’s not pretend sanctions are somehow nonviolent.

celticmusic 7y ago
and yet, that will be less than the war in iraq. It's github. I would personally be inconvenienced, but not terribly so. I cannot imagine their life is going to crash in some meaningful way for not having access to github.
- tehbeard 7y ago
  > it's github. Are you naive enough to think the sanction is explicitly targeted exactly at github, and not any number of services, or part of a wider economic attack?
  - celticmusic 7y ago
    yes, tehbeard. The takeaway from my comment should have been that I'm naive and have no idea how sanctions work, or why they're used. That is absolutely, 100%, unequivocally, the most fair interpretation of my comment that you could have made. I should thank you for this, really. I cannot imagine someone on the internet assuming that maybe my opinion is based upon more than ignorance and naivete.
AmericanChopper 7y ago
These countries are run by some of the most violent and oppressive regimes in the world. Let’s not pretend that the US is responsible for the quality of life of the people living there. These sanctions are entirely non-violent. The actual word you’re looking for is harmful. They’re designed to be harmful, economically. Responding to regimes like this with economic pressure is most certainly preferable to actual violent conflict. Which would be guaranteed to kill thousands of innocent civilians. Given recent history, if you think electing to use non-violent methods to sanction these governments is disgusting, then I really don’t think there’s anything I could say to you. If the regime in Iran falls. It won’t be because of US sanctions. It will be because that country has been operated by a brutal dictator for decades, and the Iranian people grew tired of being the enemy of their own government.
- meitham 7y ago
  In all fairness, the Iranian government is more popular in Iran than the US govenment in the US. The US sanctions wasn't enacted to help the Iranian people, but to weaken a country that the US perceives as an adversary.
  - xtracto 7y ago
    This is important. This kind of actions have to be taken as what they are: unilateral actions of a country against another. It is just the US defending what it sees as they interests. But for the rest of the world it is just a maneuver. For some people in the USA it is difficult to see it. Given their (expected) skew towards their country. But people outside that country can see it with a more objective perspective. Similar thing is happening with the concentration camps in the south.
    - AmericanChopper 7y ago
      You’ve just described the foreign policy of every country in the world.
  - StaticRedux 7y ago
    Are they? Or are the Iranian people too afraid of the Revolutionary Guard to say different? If you want to go that route, North Korea has the most popular government and leader on Earth. I don't think you can make claims about popularity of a government that can and does make people disappear who say otherwise.
    - meitham 7y ago
      Two very different cultures. there has been several protests in Tehran in the last decade with no execution. NK has their own culture too where it's just wrong to critise their rules (or their parents). we need to stop looking at the world from a globalised western lens.
      - 7y ago
meddlepal 7y ago
It's relatively easy to avoid sanctions in the first place or have them removed: comply with US demands. Most of the world does this just fine. There's a few bad actors out there screwing their countries and their people.
- sgift 7y ago
  "What do you mean the bully hurt you? Just give him your sandwich next time!" The US is a school bully, nothing more. Unfortunately, the EU doesn't have the guts to tell them to pound sand. Instead they tell Iran they will help and do nothing to enforce it.
- tsimionescu 7y ago
  I'm hoping you're being sarcastic - if so, you're right, the US is becoming more and more transparent in its use of power to simply force countries to do whatever it wants.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
Everything that reduces quality of life kills people in some way. Heck, I commute through a town that back in the day was rich enough to prevent the highway from being expanded. I bet a couple people have died in ambulances in gridlock there. Sanctions are a heck of a lot less violent than bombs, or some tit for tat response (which would probably eventually escalate to bombs). They're basically one step up from taxes/tariffs. The perfect is the enemy of the good.
- wolco 7y ago
  But how many lives were saved from not having a fast moving road running alongside the town. Everything is good and bad.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    Normally I'd agree but this highway was built as a highway in the '50s a new route where there formerly was no road. It's not like a main street that slowly grew into a major road. The only points where pedestrians cyclists cross the road (it's limited access, nobody is walking or biking on it) are at the aforementioned traffic lights. Based on my experience as a pedestrian I suspect the lights are about the same safety as walking biking past on/off ramps. This is king of going off on a tangent though.
- adamsea 7y ago
  Sounds like something you could say about anything.
mattrp 7y ago
In this case it seems Microsoft at least is striking the right balance by leaving open the free version. They are not profiting from sanctions yet they are leaving open an information service that could be used to organize dissent within the sanctioned regime. Not that github would be the first place you’d try but at least it’s an option if all the others are blocked.

celticmusic 7y ago

and yet, that will be less than the war in iraq. It's github. I would personally be inconvenienced, but not terribly so. I cannot imagine their life is going to crash in some meaningful way for not having access to github.

tehbeard 7y ago
> it's github. Are you naive enough to think the sanction is explicitly targeted exactly at github, and not any number of services, or part of a wider economic attack?
- celticmusic 7y ago
  yes, tehbeard. The takeaway from my comment should have been that I'm naive and have no idea how sanctions work, or why they're used. That is absolutely, 100%, unequivocally, the most fair interpretation of my comment that you could have made. I should thank you for this, really. I cannot imagine someone on the internet assuming that maybe my opinion is based upon more than ignorance and naivete.

AmericanChopper 7y ago

These countries are run by some of the most violent and oppressive regimes in the world. Let’s not pretend that the US is responsible for the quality of life of the people living there. These sanctions are entirely non-violent. The actual word you’re looking for is harmful. They’re designed to be harmful, economically. Responding to regimes like this with economic pressure is most certainly preferable to actual violent conflict. Which would be guaranteed to kill thousands of innocent civilians. Given recent history, if you think electing to use non-violent methods to sanction these governments is disgusting, then I really don’t think there’s anything I could say to you. If the regime in Iran falls. It won’t be because of US sanctions. It will be because that country has been operated by a brutal dictator for decades, and the Iranian people grew tired of being the enemy of their own government.

meitham 7y ago
In all fairness, the Iranian government is more popular in Iran than the US govenment in the US. The US sanctions wasn't enacted to help the Iranian people, but to weaken a country that the US perceives as an adversary.
- xtracto 7y ago
  This is important. This kind of actions have to be taken as what they are: unilateral actions of a country against another. It is just the US defending what it sees as they interests. But for the rest of the world it is just a maneuver. For some people in the USA it is difficult to see it. Given their (expected) skew towards their country. But people outside that country can see it with a more objective perspective. Similar thing is happening with the concentration camps in the south.
  - AmericanChopper 7y ago
    You’ve just described the foreign policy of every country in the world.
- StaticRedux 7y ago
  Are they? Or are the Iranian people too afraid of the Revolutionary Guard to say different? If you want to go that route, North Korea has the most popular government and leader on Earth. I don't think you can make claims about popularity of a government that can and does make people disappear who say otherwise.
  - meitham 7y ago
    Two very different cultures. there has been several protests in Tehran in the last decade with no execution. NK has their own culture too where it's just wrong to critise their rules (or their parents). we need to stop looking at the world from a globalised western lens.
    - 7y ago

meddlepal 7y ago

It's relatively easy to avoid sanctions in the first place or have them removed: comply with US demands. Most of the world does this just fine. There's a few bad actors out there screwing their countries and their people.

sgift 7y ago
"What do you mean the bully hurt you? Just give him your sandwich next time!" The US is a school bully, nothing more. Unfortunately, the EU doesn't have the guts to tell them to pound sand. Instead they tell Iran they will help and do nothing to enforce it.
tsimionescu 7y ago
I'm hoping you're being sarcastic - if so, you're right, the US is becoming more and more transparent in its use of power to simply force countries to do whatever it wants.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago

Everything that reduces quality of life kills people in some way. Heck, I commute through a town that back in the day was rich enough to prevent the highway from being expanded. I bet a couple people have died in ambulances in gridlock there. Sanctions are a heck of a lot less violent than bombs, or some tit for tat response (which would probably eventually escalate to bombs). They're basically one step up from taxes/tariffs. The perfect is the enemy of the good.

wolco 7y ago
But how many lives were saved from not having a fast moving road running alongside the town. Everything is good and bad.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  Normally I'd agree but this highway was built as a highway in the '50s a new route where there formerly was no road. It's not like a main street that slowly grew into a major road. The only points where pedestrians cyclists cross the road (it's limited access, nobody is walking or biking on it) are at the aforementioned traffic lights. Based on my experience as a pedestrian I suspect the lights are about the same safety as walking biking past on/off ramps. This is king of going off on a tangent though.
adamsea 7y ago
Sounds like something you could say about anything.

mattrp 7y ago

In this case it seems Microsoft at least is striking the right balance by leaving open the free version. They are not profiting from sanctions yet they are leaving open an information service that could be used to organize dissent within the sanctioned regime. Not that github would be the first place you’d try but at least it’s an option if all the others are blocked.