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The amount of harassment that citizens of any state that the US claims to hate at any given time endure on a daily basis is disgusting. Exiled iranians living o

The amount of harassment that citizens of any state that the US claims to hate at any given time endure on a daily basis is disgusting. Exiled iranians living outside of Iran for 20 years have got their bank accounts closed solely for being Iranian. I can't help but think that these internet services will be going that way in the future. The fact that the "free software" community is not putting their foot down for this is disgusting. Especially when there's so much back-patting when it comes to "the value of the community". Where's the community for crimean or iranian developers?

AmericanChopper 7y ago
Ya know what was actually disgusting? The war in Iraq, or any other recent regime change the US executed. If economic warfare is the way it’s done now, then that’s great. Let the casualties be inconvenienced github users, rather than ya know, actual casualties...
- cdmckay 7y ago
  You realize that sanctions also kill people through lack of supplies like medicine being available, people being unable to economically support themselves, and, if the sanctions cause the government to collapse, all the death that results from that. So let’s not pretend sanctions are somehow nonviolent.
  - celticmusic 7y ago
    and yet, that will be less than the war in iraq. It's github. I would personally be inconvenienced, but not terribly so. I cannot imagine their life is going to crash in some meaningful way for not having access to github.
    - tehbeard 7y ago
      > it's github. Are you naive enough to think the sanction is explicitly targeted exactly at github, and not any number of services, or part of a wider economic attack?
      - celticmusic 7y ago
        yes, tehbeard. The takeaway from my comment should have been that I'm naive and have no idea how sanctions work, or why they're used. That is absolutely, 100%, unequivocally, the most fair interpretation of my comment that you could have made. I should thank you for this, really. I cannot imagine someone on the internet assuming that maybe my opinion is based upon more than ignorance and naivete.
  - AmericanChopper 7y ago
    These countries are run by some of the most violent and oppressive regimes in the world. Let’s not pretend that the US is responsible for the quality of life of the people living there. These sanctions are entirely non-violent. The actual word you’re looking for is harmful. They’re designed to be harmful, economically. Responding to regimes like this with economic pressure is most certainly preferable to actual violent conflict. Which would be guaranteed to kill thousands of innocent civilians. Given recent history, if you think electing to use non-violent methods to sanction these governments is disgusting, then I really don’t think there’s anything I could say to you. If the regime in Iran falls. It won’t be because of US sanctions. It will be because that country has been operated by a brutal dictator for decades, and the Iranian people grew tired of being the enemy of their own government.
    - meitham 7y ago
      In all fairness, the Iranian government is more popular in Iran than the US govenment in the US. The US sanctions wasn't enacted to help the Iranian people, but to weaken a country that the US perceives as an adversary.
      - xtracto 7y ago
        This is important. This kind of actions have to be taken as what they are: unilateral actions of a country against another. It is just the US defending what it sees as they interests. But for the rest of the world it is just a maneuver. For some people in the USA it is difficult to see it. Given their (expected) skew towards their country. But people outside that country can see it with a more objective perspective. Similar thing is happening with the concentration camps in the south.
        AmericanChopper 7y ago
        You’ve just described the foreign policy of every country in the world.
      - StaticRedux 7y ago
        Are they? Or are the Iranian people too afraid of the Revolutionary Guard to say different? If you want to go that route, North Korea has the most popular government and leader on Earth. I don't think you can make claims about popularity of a government that can and does make people disappear who say otherwise.
  - meddlepal 7y ago
    It's relatively easy to avoid sanctions in the first place or have them removed: comply with US demands. Most of the world does this just fine. There's a few bad actors out there screwing their countries and their people.
    - sgift 7y ago
      "What do you mean the bully hurt you? Just give him your sandwich next time!" The US is a school bully, nothing more. Unfortunately, the EU doesn't have the guts to tell them to pound sand. Instead they tell Iran they will help and do nothing to enforce it.
    - tsimionescu 7y ago
      I'm hoping you're being sarcastic - if so, you're right, the US is becoming more and more transparent in its use of power to simply force countries to do whatever it wants.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    Everything that reduces quality of life kills people in some way. Heck, I commute through a town that back in the day was rich enough to prevent the highway from being expanded. I bet a couple people have died in ambulances in gridlock there. Sanctions are a heck of a lot less violent than bombs, or some tit for tat response (which would probably eventually escalate to bombs). They're basically one step up from taxes/tariffs. The perfect is the enemy of the good.
    - wolco 7y ago
      But how many lives were saved from not having a fast moving road running alongside the town. Everything is good and bad.
      - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
        Normally I'd agree but this highway was built as a highway in the '50s a new route where there formerly was no road. It's not like a main street that slowly grew into a major road. The only points where pedestrians cyclists cross the road (it's limited access, nobody is walking or biking on it) are at the aforementioned traffic lights. Based on my experience as a pedestrian I suspect the lights are about the same safety as walking biking past on/off ramps. This is king of going off on a tangent though.
    - adamsea 7y ago
      Sounds like something you could say about anything.
  - mattrp 7y ago
    In this case it seems Microsoft at least is striking the right balance by leaving open the free version. They are not profiting from sanctions yet they are leaving open an information service that could be used to organize dissent within the sanctioned regime. Not that github would be the first place you’d try but at least it’s an option if all the others are blocked.
- namirez 7y ago
  False dichotomy! Economic sanctions are not the only alternative to actual wars. In fact, they are a form of collective punishment that harm average citizens of these countries more than their governments. And this is not just about some inconvenienced github users; this has been a contentious issue in every natural disaster [1]. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-floods-redcrescent/flood-hit-iran-getting-no-financial-aid-from-abroad-due-to-u-s-sanctions-statement-idUSKCN1RJ0GY https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-floods-redcrescent/f...
  - AmericanChopper 7y ago
    In any situation, the people will be harmed by any form of action taken against its government. By this logic, it would never be considered reasonable to take any action at all against any government. When one country vows to wipe another country off the map, it’s reasonable for other countries to take some action against that. When a dictator spends the better part of a decade bombing its civilians, it’s reasonable for other countries to take some action against that. Your options really are to retaliate with force, or sanctions. Economic sanctions are far less harmful, and far more productive. I’d bet that all those Syrians you see on the news digging their dead family members out of the rubble of their bombed houses would be more than willing to trade that life for one with economic sanctions. I’m really struggling to believe that an anti-war stance is now considered controversial on HN.
    - namirez 7y ago
      > I’m really struggling to believe that an anti-war stance is now considered controversial on HN I Don't know about HN, but I don't think an anti-war stance is controversial. Having said that, I believe, presenting economic sanctions as a humane alternative to war is deeply misleading. Of course you are entitled to your opinion.
      - AmericanChopper 7y ago
        Economic sanctions are quite obviously an alternative to war (though perhaps not the only alternative), and if you look at recent administrations proclivity for intervention and regime change, it’s also quite obviously a change of tack. Whether the sanctions are warranted is much more open to debate. But in Syria you have a regime that created the greatest humanitarian crisis of a generation, and in Iran you have a regime that repeatedly vows to wipe another country off the map, and an enormous proliferation risk. So I know what side of that debate I’d fall on, and I know what my preferences are when it comes to starting new wars.
- shakyshakyshaky 7y ago
  http://cepr.net/press-center/press-releases/report-finds-us-sanctions-on-venezuela-are-responsible-for-tens-of-thousands-of-deaths http://cepr.net/press-center/press-releases/report-finds-us-...
zelon88 7y ago
While I believe in the GNU definition of free software, how are we to maintain a community that's truly open-source when the parties you speak of don't believe in free software themselves? Are we really to give them the best our world has to offer so they can use it to suppress people and act against their interests? Do we let them use our libraries and tools to make their world smaller for their citizens? Do we let them steal our code to change it to hurt others and then not reciprocate it back in? Do we let them take the best we have to offer with such obvious mal-intent? If it were a difference of culture or opinion that's fine. But you're allowing rogue authoritarian states to use our technology while taking an adversarial stance to our primary purpose; the free transfer of knowledge and information. We don't need to accommodate that. They need to accommodate the freedom their people are entitled to. Think about it. Which developers in North Korea or Iran are using Github? Answer: The ones the government lets use Github.
- 7Z7 7y ago
  This is a pretty gross generalisation of the people and issues at stake. "We" the individual freedom loving, contributors. "They", the rogue nations using open source software to oppress and enslave. Honestly it boggles my mind how easily you slipped into that mentality in response to the comment you replied to - a comment describing people caught in the crossfire, affected by the choices of nations at war, individual liberties crushed by sanctions and foreign policy.
  - zelon88 7y ago
    If an individual feels wrongly and disproportionately impacted by US sanctions they can apply to the SEC for a waiver. A small, lonely dev will probably be ok. But the issue isn't with one dev who gets caught in the crossfire. You want to stop fighting a blazing inferno to mount a rescue operation because there's one kitten in the burning apartment building. Individual liberties cannot be realized without sanctions and foreign policy. Do you think if Github were located in Tehran that Americans would be able to post a commit right now?
    - luckylion 7y ago
Flip-per 7y ago
How do you come to this conclusion, and what exactly do you mean by "free software community"? Github/Microsoft? There are quite some free software projects that use their own code hosting (e.g. https://salsa.debian.org https://salsa.debian.org). But if you don't have time for that and use github for your OSS project you are now disgusting because of the iranian sanctions? How about gender equality? CO2 neutral servers? Why are the ones that put effort into building and improving things blamed for not being at least perfect?
not_a_cop75 7y ago
It's unfortunately hard to separate good and honest foreigners from those that would prefer to destroy other nation states.
- slenk 7y ago
  Yeah but I would argue that the US is actually destroying other nation-states
  - dingo_bat 7y ago
    Other nation states are equally free to punish US for that.
- markvdb 7y ago
  s/foreigners/people/ .
- adamsea 7y ago
  Dude we had a perfectly reasonable nuclear deal with Iran that the idiot who shall not be named chose to break. It’s not Iran that’s the greatest threat to the security and growth of the US - currently our greatest threat is “homegrown” and tomato-faced.
- hsk823 7y ago
  It's hard but not impossible, and unfortunately in cases like this, innocent people being harassed is the point, to get nation states to be pressured by their own citizens to act the way the sanctioning country wants.
- newsgremlin 7y ago
  It is however quite easy for good and honest foreigners to determine if the US wishes to destroy other nation states.

AmericanChopper 7y ago

Ya know what was actually disgusting? The war in Iraq, or any other recent regime change the US executed. If economic warfare is the way it’s done now, then that’s great. Let the casualties be inconvenienced github users, rather than ya know, actual casualties...

cdmckay 7y ago
You realize that sanctions also kill people through lack of supplies like medicine being available, people being unable to economically support themselves, and, if the sanctions cause the government to collapse, all the death that results from that. So let’s not pretend sanctions are somehow nonviolent.
- celticmusic 7y ago
  and yet, that will be less than the war in iraq. It's github. I would personally be inconvenienced, but not terribly so. I cannot imagine their life is going to crash in some meaningful way for not having access to github.
  - tehbeard 7y ago
    > it's github. Are you naive enough to think the sanction is explicitly targeted exactly at github, and not any number of services, or part of a wider economic attack?
    - celticmusic 7y ago
      yes, tehbeard. The takeaway from my comment should have been that I'm naive and have no idea how sanctions work, or why they're used. That is absolutely, 100%, unequivocally, the most fair interpretation of my comment that you could have made. I should thank you for this, really. I cannot imagine someone on the internet assuming that maybe my opinion is based upon more than ignorance and naivete.
- AmericanChopper 7y ago
  These countries are run by some of the most violent and oppressive regimes in the world. Let’s not pretend that the US is responsible for the quality of life of the people living there. These sanctions are entirely non-violent. The actual word you’re looking for is harmful. They’re designed to be harmful, economically. Responding to regimes like this with economic pressure is most certainly preferable to actual violent conflict. Which would be guaranteed to kill thousands of innocent civilians. Given recent history, if you think electing to use non-violent methods to sanction these governments is disgusting, then I really don’t think there’s anything I could say to you. If the regime in Iran falls. It won’t be because of US sanctions. It will be because that country has been operated by a brutal dictator for decades, and the Iranian people grew tired of being the enemy of their own government.
  - meitham 7y ago
    In all fairness, the Iranian government is more popular in Iran than the US govenment in the US. The US sanctions wasn't enacted to help the Iranian people, but to weaken a country that the US perceives as an adversary.
    - xtracto 7y ago
      This is important. This kind of actions have to be taken as what they are: unilateral actions of a country against another. It is just the US defending what it sees as they interests. But for the rest of the world it is just a maneuver. For some people in the USA it is difficult to see it. Given their (expected) skew towards their country. But people outside that country can see it with a more objective perspective. Similar thing is happening with the concentration camps in the south.
      - AmericanChopper 7y ago
        You’ve just described the foreign policy of every country in the world.
    - StaticRedux 7y ago
      Are they? Or are the Iranian people too afraid of the Revolutionary Guard to say different? If you want to go that route, North Korea has the most popular government and leader on Earth. I don't think you can make claims about popularity of a government that can and does make people disappear who say otherwise.
- meddlepal 7y ago
  It's relatively easy to avoid sanctions in the first place or have them removed: comply with US demands. Most of the world does this just fine. There's a few bad actors out there screwing their countries and their people.
  - sgift 7y ago
    "What do you mean the bully hurt you? Just give him your sandwich next time!" The US is a school bully, nothing more. Unfortunately, the EU doesn't have the guts to tell them to pound sand. Instead they tell Iran they will help and do nothing to enforce it.
  - tsimionescu 7y ago
    I'm hoping you're being sarcastic - if so, you're right, the US is becoming more and more transparent in its use of power to simply force countries to do whatever it wants.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  Everything that reduces quality of life kills people in some way. Heck, I commute through a town that back in the day was rich enough to prevent the highway from being expanded. I bet a couple people have died in ambulances in gridlock there. Sanctions are a heck of a lot less violent than bombs, or some tit for tat response (which would probably eventually escalate to bombs). They're basically one step up from taxes/tariffs. The perfect is the enemy of the good.
  - wolco 7y ago
    But how many lives were saved from not having a fast moving road running alongside the town. Everything is good and bad.
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      Normally I'd agree but this highway was built as a highway in the '50s a new route where there formerly was no road. It's not like a main street that slowly grew into a major road. The only points where pedestrians cyclists cross the road (it's limited access, nobody is walking or biking on it) are at the aforementioned traffic lights. Based on my experience as a pedestrian I suspect the lights are about the same safety as walking biking past on/off ramps. This is king of going off on a tangent though.
  - adamsea 7y ago
    Sounds like something you could say about anything.
- mattrp 7y ago
  In this case it seems Microsoft at least is striking the right balance by leaving open the free version. They are not profiting from sanctions yet they are leaving open an information service that could be used to organize dissent within the sanctioned regime. Not that github would be the first place you’d try but at least it’s an option if all the others are blocked.
namirez 7y ago
False dichotomy! Economic sanctions are not the only alternative to actual wars. In fact, they are a form of collective punishment that harm average citizens of these countries more than their governments. And this is not just about some inconvenienced github users; this has been a contentious issue in every natural disaster [1]. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-floods-redcrescent/flood-hit-iran-getting-no-financial-aid-from-abroad-due-to-u-s-sanctions-statement-idUSKCN1RJ0GY https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-floods-redcrescent/f...
- AmericanChopper 7y ago
  In any situation, the people will be harmed by any form of action taken against its government. By this logic, it would never be considered reasonable to take any action at all against any government. When one country vows to wipe another country off the map, it’s reasonable for other countries to take some action against that. When a dictator spends the better part of a decade bombing its civilians, it’s reasonable for other countries to take some action against that. Your options really are to retaliate with force, or sanctions. Economic sanctions are far less harmful, and far more productive. I’d bet that all those Syrians you see on the news digging their dead family members out of the rubble of their bombed houses would be more than willing to trade that life for one with economic sanctions. I’m really struggling to believe that an anti-war stance is now considered controversial on HN.
  - namirez 7y ago
    > I’m really struggling to believe that an anti-war stance is now considered controversial on HN I Don't know about HN, but I don't think an anti-war stance is controversial. Having said that, I believe, presenting economic sanctions as a humane alternative to war is deeply misleading. Of course you are entitled to your opinion.
    - AmericanChopper 7y ago
      Economic sanctions are quite obviously an alternative to war (though perhaps not the only alternative), and if you look at recent administrations proclivity for intervention and regime change, it’s also quite obviously a change of tack. Whether the sanctions are warranted is much more open to debate. But in Syria you have a regime that created the greatest humanitarian crisis of a generation, and in Iran you have a regime that repeatedly vows to wipe another country off the map, and an enormous proliferation risk. So I know what side of that debate I’d fall on, and I know what my preferences are when it comes to starting new wars.
shakyshakyshaky 7y ago
http://cepr.net/press-center/press-releases/report-finds-us-sanctions-on-venezuela-are-responsible-for-tens-of-thousands-of-deaths http://cepr.net/press-center/press-releases/report-finds-us-...

zelon88 7y ago

While I believe in the GNU definition of free software, how are we to maintain a community that's truly open-source when the parties you speak of don't believe in free software themselves? Are we really to give them the best our world has to offer so they can use it to suppress people and act against their interests? Do we let them use our libraries and tools to make their world smaller for their citizens? Do we let them steal our code to change it to hurt others and then not reciprocate it back in? Do we let them take the best we have to offer with such obvious mal-intent? If it were a difference of culture or opinion that's fine. But you're allowing rogue authoritarian states to use our technology while taking an adversarial stance to our primary purpose; the free transfer of knowledge and information. We don't need to accommodate that. They need to accommodate the freedom their people are entitled to. Think about it. Which developers in North Korea or Iran are using Github? Answer: The ones the government lets use Github.

7Z7 7y ago
This is a pretty gross generalisation of the people and issues at stake. "We" the individual freedom loving, contributors. "They", the rogue nations using open source software to oppress and enslave. Honestly it boggles my mind how easily you slipped into that mentality in response to the comment you replied to - a comment describing people caught in the crossfire, affected by the choices of nations at war, individual liberties crushed by sanctions and foreign policy.
- zelon88 7y ago
  If an individual feels wrongly and disproportionately impacted by US sanctions they can apply to the SEC for a waiver. A small, lonely dev will probably be ok. But the issue isn't with one dev who gets caught in the crossfire. You want to stop fighting a blazing inferno to mount a rescue operation because there's one kitten in the burning apartment building. Individual liberties cannot be realized without sanctions and foreign policy. Do you think if Github were located in Tehran that Americans would be able to post a commit right now?
  - luckylion 7y ago

Flip-per 7y ago

How do you come to this conclusion, and what exactly do you mean by "free software community"? Github/Microsoft? There are quite some free software projects that use their own code hosting (e.g. https://salsa.debian.org https://salsa.debian.org). But if you don't have time for that and use github for your OSS project you are now disgusting because of the iranian sanctions? How about gender equality? CO2 neutral servers? Why are the ones that put effort into building and improving things blamed for not being at least perfect?

not_a_cop75 7y ago

It's unfortunately hard to separate good and honest foreigners from those that would prefer to destroy other nation states.

slenk 7y ago
Yeah but I would argue that the US is actually destroying other nation-states
- dingo_bat 7y ago
  Other nation states are equally free to punish US for that.
markvdb 7y ago
s/foreigners/people/ .
adamsea 7y ago
Dude we had a perfectly reasonable nuclear deal with Iran that the idiot who shall not be named chose to break. It’s not Iran that’s the greatest threat to the security and growth of the US - currently our greatest threat is “homegrown” and tomato-faced.
hsk823 7y ago
It's hard but not impossible, and unfortunately in cases like this, innocent people being harassed is the point, to get nation states to be pressured by their own citizens to act the way the sanctioning country wants.
newsgremlin 7y ago
It is however quite easy for good and honest foreigners to determine if the US wishes to destroy other nation states.