6 ms·

I am not aware of any claim that the devil is the largest evil that could be imagined. Further, such a definition would not make sense in for example traditiona

I am not aware of any claim that the devil is the largest evil that could be imagined. Further, such a definition would not make sense in for example traditional Christianity where evil is defined as a privation on good, not something that exists in itself. Having God and the devil as evenly matched but opposite powers is not something you would find in theology. Learn the basics of it before thinking you have created a proper critique.

maze-le 7y ago
That sounds as if it were a fact that can be measured. Everything can be conjured into existence by false assumptions. "The spaghetti monster, by definition, is that for which no more delicious thing can be conceived. The spaghetti monster exists in the understanding. If the spaghetti monster exists in the understanding, we could imagine it to be even more delicious by existing in reality. Therefore, the spaghetti monster must exist."
- Conjoiner 7y ago
  Your first premise is false. Hooking up your sensory system to a device that generates the maximum signal would give a larger signal since it would bypass degradation in your mouth. Think your argument through first. Are your premises actually true?
  - maze-le 7y ago
    Likewise with god...
goto11 7y ago
> I am not aware of any claim that the devil is the largest evil that could be imagined. That is completely irrelevant. The ontological proof claims to deduce the existence of an entity from a definition of that entity. It does not matter whether this definition happen to match some current religious dogma or not.
- vinceguidry 7y ago
  Anselm defined God as "that which nothing greater can be thought." Introducing a devil into this mix doesn't change this reasoning, and basically boils down to "is evil greater than good?", which I don't think anyone can reasonably argue. It's not the most interesting argument for God I've encountered, but it's not trivially invalidated by elevating evil to the same status as good. That hasn't been a serious element of any real theology since long before the ancient Hebrews. Theology is the art of imagination, the same way that politics is the art of the possible. Imagining absolute evil is only interesting when you want to attack the idea of absolute good. Absolute good remains interesting without a foil. So therefore people will be willing to believe in it.
  - goto11 7y ago
    The point is that if the ontological argument is valid then you can define all kinds of things into existence also. The devil is just an example, it could also be The Most Perfect Island, The Real Santa Claus and so on. So it is a reductio ad absurdum.
    - vinceguidry 7y ago
      I'm not saying the ontological argument is correct, just that your reasoning doesn't sufficiently refute it.
      - goto11 7y ago
        It doesn't refute it per se. It just shows that The Real Santa Claus also exists by the same token. Which is not really a logical contradiction so if you want to believe that, more power to you.
        vinceguidry 7y ago
        The real Santa Claus did exist, the one the current myth is based on.

maze-le 7y ago

That sounds as if it were a fact that can be measured. Everything can be conjured into existence by false assumptions. "The spaghetti monster, by definition, is that for which no more delicious thing can be conceived. The spaghetti monster exists in the understanding. If the spaghetti monster exists in the understanding, we could imagine it to be even more delicious by existing in reality. Therefore, the spaghetti monster must exist."

Conjoiner 7y ago
Your first premise is false. Hooking up your sensory system to a device that generates the maximum signal would give a larger signal since it would bypass degradation in your mouth. Think your argument through first. Are your premises actually true?
- maze-le 7y ago
  Likewise with god...

goto11 7y ago

> I am not aware of any claim that the devil is the largest evil that could be imagined. That is completely irrelevant. The ontological proof claims to deduce the existence of an entity from a definition of that entity. It does not matter whether this definition happen to match some current religious dogma or not.

vinceguidry 7y ago
Anselm defined God as "that which nothing greater can be thought." Introducing a devil into this mix doesn't change this reasoning, and basically boils down to "is evil greater than good?", which I don't think anyone can reasonably argue. It's not the most interesting argument for God I've encountered, but it's not trivially invalidated by elevating evil to the same status as good. That hasn't been a serious element of any real theology since long before the ancient Hebrews. Theology is the art of imagination, the same way that politics is the art of the possible. Imagining absolute evil is only interesting when you want to attack the idea of absolute good. Absolute good remains interesting without a foil. So therefore people will be willing to believe in it.
- goto11 7y ago
  The point is that if the ontological argument is valid then you can define all kinds of things into existence also. The devil is just an example, it could also be The Most Perfect Island, The Real Santa Claus and so on. So it is a reductio ad absurdum.
  - vinceguidry 7y ago
    I'm not saying the ontological argument is correct, just that your reasoning doesn't sufficiently refute it.
    - goto11 7y ago
      It doesn't refute it per se. It just shows that The Real Santa Claus also exists by the same token. Which is not really a logical contradiction so if you want to believe that, more power to you.
      - vinceguidry 7y ago
        The real Santa Claus did exist, the one the current myth is based on.