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Methods seem to vary a lot by country, and some of the highest-rate countries don't primarily use guns, so I'm not sure other methods can be easily dismissed as

Methods seem to vary a lot by country, and some of the highest-rate countries don't primarily use guns, so I'm not sure other methods can be easily dismissed as less dangerous. For example, Belgium's overall suicide rate is higher than the USA's, and the most popular method there is hanging (a majority of male suicides, and a plurality of female suicides) [1]. Of course I can't say that the rate wouldn't be even higher if Belgium had more guns, but it manages a quite high rate without them. [1] https://jech.bmj.com/content/62/6/545 https://jech.bmj.com/content/62/6/545

bayesian_horse 7y ago
It's misleading at best to reduce differences between countries to one thing, like gun ownership. Nobody said this was the only factor affecting suicide rates. The article you cite provides virtually no information on how the availability of guns, especially because guns are generally much less available in Europe than in the US. Still, about 30% of suicides in Switzerland are committed with guns. Virtually every country has its own culture around guns and around suicide. Very obviously in the case of Japan with high suicide rates and even ritualistic ways of suicide. Therefore it is impossible to isolate the effect of gun ownership just by looking at different countries. And "not being the primary way of suicide" is a really weak argument against tightening gun controls to save people's lives. Even if it is "just" 10% in Europe, 30% in Switzerland and about 50% in the US. Those lives are very much worth saving, and at least in Europe, it's already the norm to take away guns from people who have these problems. Gun advocates often cite Switzerland as a country with very responsible gun owners. Still, if you compare the rates of gun suicides, accidents and murder to their smaller population, it's still quite shocking. But those stories rarely make news abroad.
- KptMarchewa 7y ago
  You were talking about "impact guns have on suicide rates". People are using method that they think is most successful, and if they own gun, it's very probable that they will use it. >And "not being the primary way of suicide" is a really weak argument against tightening gun controls to save people's lives. Even if it is "just" 10% in Europe, 30% in Switzerland and about 50% in the US. Those lives are very much worth saving, and at least in Europe, it's already the norm to take away guns from people who have these problems. This is a weak argument, because it implies that by taking guns, people won't commit suicide, when they may just do it by any other method. Which the high rates of suicide in several other countries with way less gun ownership than in US point to. By the way, using emotionally charged statements like "those lives are very much worth saving" when your interlocutor did not suggest anything otherwise is at the very least unpleasant discussion style.
  - zaarn 7y ago
    >This is a weak argument, because it implies that by taking guns, people won't commit suicide, when they may just do it by any other method. That argument is correct; a major suicide prevention measure is taking away methods. When countries switched from coal gas to natural gas, suicide rate went down for this reason. Suicide is largely a in-the-moment decision and guns make it very easy to act on it. >Which the high rates of suicide in several other countries with way less gun ownership than in US point to. I don't think that's true, they may just have a different culture that leads to more suicide. Gun ownership isn't the only difference between the USA and other countries.
  - bayesian_horse 7y ago
    People are quite particular about their methods of suicide. They usually don't want to have any pain, but prefer to die instantly. No method checks as many of these boxes as using a gun. I got the previous argument as saying exactly that the main method of suicide in Europe is hanging, and not shooting, and therefor taking guns away from most people who don't have a positive need to be armed or with doubts about their reliability wouldn't affect suicides in a significant manner. Otherwise citing that article makes no sense to me, since it actually points to guns being a major factor. It's impossible to infer the effect of gun ownership on suicide rates by looking at countries. Too many confounding factors, too little number of countries. Same goes for states in the US. Suicide is a very culturally shaped topic, and on top of that it is affected by the health system, economy and various other factors.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    > because it implies that by taking guns, people won't commit suicide, when they may just do it by any other method. We know that method substitution does happen, but people would be using a less lethal method instead of a very lethal method so that alone will save lives. Also, not everyone will use a different method. We don't really know what the rates are for people switching methods. Reducing access to means and methods is about the most important short term suicide prevention measure we can take, alongside all the other stuff we need to help people avoid falling into suicidal thinking.
- Y_Y 7y ago
  Thanks to mandatory military service almost every household in Switzerland has a gun.
  - bayesian_horse 7y ago
    I wouldn't attribute it to mandatory military service, but rather to the attitude of soldiers/reservists keeping an issued gun at home, with all the benefits and disadvantages. Which also isn't the norm in most countries with mandatory military service. Unfortunately, those guns are indeed regularly used in suicides and murders, often in a spur of a moment decision.
- _iyig 7y ago
  >Gun advocates often cite Switzerland as a country with very responsible gun owners. Still, if you compare the rates of gun suicides, accidents and murder to their smaller population, it's still quite shocking. Switzerland’s murder rate is among the very lowest in Europe. Only Austria and several of the tinier countries even come close. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...
DanBC 7y ago
How do they define a death by suicide in Belgium? Is that comparable to how they define it in the US?
- bayesian_horse 7y ago
  One confounding factor would be the "Suicide by Cop" thing.

bayesian_horse 7y ago

It's misleading at best to reduce differences between countries to one thing, like gun ownership. Nobody said this was the only factor affecting suicide rates. The article you cite provides virtually no information on how the availability of guns, especially because guns are generally much less available in Europe than in the US. Still, about 30% of suicides in Switzerland are committed with guns. Virtually every country has its own culture around guns and around suicide. Very obviously in the case of Japan with high suicide rates and even ritualistic ways of suicide. Therefore it is impossible to isolate the effect of gun ownership just by looking at different countries. And "not being the primary way of suicide" is a really weak argument against tightening gun controls to save people's lives. Even if it is "just" 10% in Europe, 30% in Switzerland and about 50% in the US. Those lives are very much worth saving, and at least in Europe, it's already the norm to take away guns from people who have these problems. Gun advocates often cite Switzerland as a country with very responsible gun owners. Still, if you compare the rates of gun suicides, accidents and murder to their smaller population, it's still quite shocking. But those stories rarely make news abroad.

KptMarchewa 7y ago
You were talking about "impact guns have on suicide rates". People are using method that they think is most successful, and if they own gun, it's very probable that they will use it. >And "not being the primary way of suicide" is a really weak argument against tightening gun controls to save people's lives. Even if it is "just" 10% in Europe, 30% in Switzerland and about 50% in the US. Those lives are very much worth saving, and at least in Europe, it's already the norm to take away guns from people who have these problems. This is a weak argument, because it implies that by taking guns, people won't commit suicide, when they may just do it by any other method. Which the high rates of suicide in several other countries with way less gun ownership than in US point to. By the way, using emotionally charged statements like "those lives are very much worth saving" when your interlocutor did not suggest anything otherwise is at the very least unpleasant discussion style.
- zaarn 7y ago
  >This is a weak argument, because it implies that by taking guns, people won't commit suicide, when they may just do it by any other method. That argument is correct; a major suicide prevention measure is taking away methods. When countries switched from coal gas to natural gas, suicide rate went down for this reason. Suicide is largely a in-the-moment decision and guns make it very easy to act on it. >Which the high rates of suicide in several other countries with way less gun ownership than in US point to. I don't think that's true, they may just have a different culture that leads to more suicide. Gun ownership isn't the only difference between the USA and other countries.
- bayesian_horse 7y ago
  People are quite particular about their methods of suicide. They usually don't want to have any pain, but prefer to die instantly. No method checks as many of these boxes as using a gun. I got the previous argument as saying exactly that the main method of suicide in Europe is hanging, and not shooting, and therefor taking guns away from most people who don't have a positive need to be armed or with doubts about their reliability wouldn't affect suicides in a significant manner. Otherwise citing that article makes no sense to me, since it actually points to guns being a major factor. It's impossible to infer the effect of gun ownership on suicide rates by looking at countries. Too many confounding factors, too little number of countries. Same goes for states in the US. Suicide is a very culturally shaped topic, and on top of that it is affected by the health system, economy and various other factors.
- DanBC 7y ago
  > because it implies that by taking guns, people won't commit suicide, when they may just do it by any other method. We know that method substitution does happen, but people would be using a less lethal method instead of a very lethal method so that alone will save lives. Also, not everyone will use a different method. We don't really know what the rates are for people switching methods. Reducing access to means and methods is about the most important short term suicide prevention measure we can take, alongside all the other stuff we need to help people avoid falling into suicidal thinking.
Y_Y 7y ago
Thanks to mandatory military service almost every household in Switzerland has a gun.
- bayesian_horse 7y ago
  I wouldn't attribute it to mandatory military service, but rather to the attitude of soldiers/reservists keeping an issued gun at home, with all the benefits and disadvantages. Which also isn't the norm in most countries with mandatory military service. Unfortunately, those guns are indeed regularly used in suicides and murders, often in a spur of a moment decision.
_iyig 7y ago
>Gun advocates often cite Switzerland as a country with very responsible gun owners. Still, if you compare the rates of gun suicides, accidents and murder to their smaller population, it's still quite shocking. Switzerland’s murder rate is among the very lowest in Europe. Only Austria and several of the tinier countries even come close. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...

DanBC 7y ago

How do they define a death by suicide in Belgium? Is that comparable to how they define it in the US?

bayesian_horse 7y ago
One confounding factor would be the "Suicide by Cop" thing.