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It's a bigger problem than it first appears. The way we (in the pacific northwest) do logging causes a lot of soil erosion and just makes everything super ugly

It's a bigger problem than it first appears. The way we (in the pacific northwest) do logging causes a lot of soil erosion and just makes everything super ugly. https://www.google.com/maps/@47.7121672,-124.2984644,8635m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@47.7121672,-124.2984644,8635m/d... Just move google maps around anywhere heavily forested and you will see giant wounds in the hills. Most countries in Europe don't do this. We could do what they do and use reduced impact logging. Don't cut all the trees at once. This sort of regulation is much easier to achieve than global carbon caps because it's benefits are realized in the backyards of those that deal with them. It's easy to enforce and it also shouldn't cost us much. We'll pay a little more for lumber but that's it.

sprainedankles 7y ago
Amazing to see the "Duncan Memorial Cedar Tree" so close to a wiped out area (aaaand a quick search reveals it fell just a few years ago. Ouch.) What exactly does it mean to do "reduced impact logging" in Europe, do you have a link? Coming from the Northeast where our trees are also of great economic value (and of greater natural value), I completely agree that a more strategic approach to logging should be pursued. But at the same time, we need to develop methods for supporting rural logging towns economically. I'm not sure what the answer is, but ideally it can make use of and build upon existing skill-sets and lifestyles in those areas. I want to believe that if communities are properly educated and given opportunities to improve their practices, they would.
- maxerickson 7y ago
  I don't think there is really such a thing as a logging town anymore. I mean, I live in a county where logging equipment is manufactured, and regionally logging is quite important to the economy, but it's all itinerant, there's no need to be settled near the work.
  - grosswait 7y ago
    I imagine he means towns supported by mills.
  - sprainedankles 7y ago
    I suppose the term "logging town" is less relevant now as the communities fade, but they certainly exist [Source: I'm working in a Mill Town right now] Any any industry rooted in the natural resources of an area breeds communities that are located near them. I think most people _prefer_ settling near work if possible. I guess I find it unfortunate that small but strong communities are a dying breed. A healthy community to live in is an essential part of a quality life. It's quite literally the foundation of modern society, and I sense that the concentration of populations in huge cities is only further compounding the challenges we face (climate change, economic inequality, the overall health of a population)
    - bradleyjg 7y ago
      > I sense that the concentration of populations in huge cities is only further compounding the challenges we face (climate change, economic inequality, the overall health of a population) On the contrary, dense populations allow for the efficient distribution of goods and services. There may be an aesthetic argument in favor of small town living but there isn’t an environmental one.
      - sprainedankles 7y ago
        That's true, but those distributed goods primarily come from rural areas. Obviously we need both rural and urban areas, but I suppose my "born in a small town" bias wants a better balance between the two than we currently have. For the benefit of both!
        0xB31B1B 7y ago
        At least in the US, I feel a “better balance” would mean extreme missing middle housing production in the most productive cities so that the difference in the cost of housing between cities and rural areas would decline. I’d also be supportive of promoting actual “small towns” like those areas across much of the Midwest and rust belt that have a dense historic center and allow one to live a car free or reduced car lifestyle. What we do not need is more low density single family home car dependent living space.
ricardobeat 7y ago
Wow, when you look a bit further south it seems like the entire state is being eaten little by little: https://www.google.com/maps/place/46.943860,+-123.486175/@46.9213538,-123.4889211,10z/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/place/46.943860,+-123.486175/@46...
- lawkwok 7y ago
  That is scary. I zoomed in expecting to see farmland but instead they were bald patches. Just like male pattern baldness by the time you notice it, the process is already well underway.
  - novaleaf 7y ago
    Yes it's ugly, but much better to clear cut pockets every couple decades than to clearcut everything to turn into farm land.
    - ricardobeat 7y ago
      These forests take a lot longer than a couple decades to recover.
      - fraserharris 7y ago
        On Vancouver Island the harvesting cycle is 40 - 50 years. Trees grow fast with reasonable temperatures with lots of rain.
        novaleaf 7y ago
        In Washington I think the cycle is similar for hardwoods. Wherhauser is a pretty good steward of their land, as that's really the only "asset" they have.
- splicer 7y ago
  Same with Vancouver Island: https://goo.gl/maps/aXADesFXHUbyjPMw8 https://goo.gl/maps/aXADesFXHUbyjPMw8
xemoka 7y ago
Interestingly, clear cuts mimic natural disturbance types (particularly in some of the historically fire maintained ecosystems). It's not quite as cut and dry as clear-cut logging is bad. That said, we're pulling far too much wood out of our landscape here in BC, faster than it's able to replenish that's for sure.
- oska 7y ago
  What natural disturbance does clear cut mimic? No, it certainly does not mimic a forest fire. Nor does it mimic rare events such as the blast effects from a volcanic explosion (such as Mount Helena).
Bayart 7y ago
>Most countries in Europe don't do this. It's way worse where I live in terms of jarring patchwork, and it's still one of the more forested areas in France. https://www.google.fr/maps/place/@45.5731524,1.8908994,18497m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47f8f7c229afaab1:0x1c05d395aa856480!8m2!3d45.4257701!4d1.8304919 https://www.google.fr/maps/place/@45.5731524,1.8908994,18497...
- davidw 7y ago
  You want to see a crazy patchwork... check this out: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7723317,-123.3430591,31329m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7723317,-123.3430591,31329m/... Those squares are the result of land being sold off to fund railroads. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_and_California_Railroad_Revested_Lands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_and_California_Railroad...
  - Bayart 7y ago
    Zoom back a bit, and it looks like your landscape has dying GPU syndrome.

sprainedankles 7y ago

Amazing to see the "Duncan Memorial Cedar Tree" so close to a wiped out area (aaaand a quick search reveals it fell just a few years ago. Ouch.) What exactly does it mean to do "reduced impact logging" in Europe, do you have a link? Coming from the Northeast where our trees are also of great economic value (and of greater natural value), I completely agree that a more strategic approach to logging should be pursued. But at the same time, we need to develop methods for supporting rural logging towns economically. I'm not sure what the answer is, but ideally it can make use of and build upon existing skill-sets and lifestyles in those areas. I want to believe that if communities are properly educated and given opportunities to improve their practices, they would.

maxerickson 7y ago
I don't think there is really such a thing as a logging town anymore. I mean, I live in a county where logging equipment is manufactured, and regionally logging is quite important to the economy, but it's all itinerant, there's no need to be settled near the work.
- grosswait 7y ago
  I imagine he means towns supported by mills.
- sprainedankles 7y ago
  I suppose the term "logging town" is less relevant now as the communities fade, but they certainly exist [Source: I'm working in a Mill Town right now] Any any industry rooted in the natural resources of an area breeds communities that are located near them. I think most people _prefer_ settling near work if possible. I guess I find it unfortunate that small but strong communities are a dying breed. A healthy community to live in is an essential part of a quality life. It's quite literally the foundation of modern society, and I sense that the concentration of populations in huge cities is only further compounding the challenges we face (climate change, economic inequality, the overall health of a population)
  - bradleyjg 7y ago
    > I sense that the concentration of populations in huge cities is only further compounding the challenges we face (climate change, economic inequality, the overall health of a population) On the contrary, dense populations allow for the efficient distribution of goods and services. There may be an aesthetic argument in favor of small town living but there isn’t an environmental one.
    - sprainedankles 7y ago
      That's true, but those distributed goods primarily come from rural areas. Obviously we need both rural and urban areas, but I suppose my "born in a small town" bias wants a better balance between the two than we currently have. For the benefit of both!
      - 0xB31B1B 7y ago
        At least in the US, I feel a “better balance” would mean extreme missing middle housing production in the most productive cities so that the difference in the cost of housing between cities and rural areas would decline. I’d also be supportive of promoting actual “small towns” like those areas across much of the Midwest and rust belt that have a dense historic center and allow one to live a car free or reduced car lifestyle. What we do not need is more low density single family home car dependent living space.

ricardobeat 7y ago

Wow, when you look a bit further south it seems like the entire state is being eaten little by little: https://www.google.com/maps/place/46.943860,+-123.486175/@46.9213538,-123.4889211,10z/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/place/46.943860,+-123.486175/@46...

lawkwok 7y ago
That is scary. I zoomed in expecting to see farmland but instead they were bald patches. Just like male pattern baldness by the time you notice it, the process is already well underway.
- novaleaf 7y ago
  Yes it's ugly, but much better to clear cut pockets every couple decades than to clearcut everything to turn into farm land.
  - ricardobeat 7y ago
    These forests take a lot longer than a couple decades to recover.
    - fraserharris 7y ago
      On Vancouver Island the harvesting cycle is 40 - 50 years. Trees grow fast with reasonable temperatures with lots of rain.
      - novaleaf 7y ago
        In Washington I think the cycle is similar for hardwoods. Wherhauser is a pretty good steward of their land, as that's really the only "asset" they have.
splicer 7y ago
Same with Vancouver Island: https://goo.gl/maps/aXADesFXHUbyjPMw8 https://goo.gl/maps/aXADesFXHUbyjPMw8

xemoka 7y ago

Interestingly, clear cuts mimic natural disturbance types (particularly in some of the historically fire maintained ecosystems). It's not quite as cut and dry as clear-cut logging is bad. That said, we're pulling far too much wood out of our landscape here in BC, faster than it's able to replenish that's for sure.

oska 7y ago
What natural disturbance does clear cut mimic? No, it certainly does not mimic a forest fire. Nor does it mimic rare events such as the blast effects from a volcanic explosion (such as Mount Helena).

Bayart 7y ago

>Most countries in Europe don't do this. It's way worse where I live in terms of jarring patchwork, and it's still one of the more forested areas in France. https://www.google.fr/maps/place/@45.5731524,1.8908994,18497m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47f8f7c229afaab1:0x1c05d395aa856480!8m2!3d45.4257701!4d1.8304919 https://www.google.fr/maps/place/@45.5731524,1.8908994,18497...

davidw 7y ago
You want to see a crazy patchwork... check this out: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7723317,-123.3430591,31329m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7723317,-123.3430591,31329m/... Those squares are the result of land being sold off to fund railroads. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_and_California_Railroad_Revested_Lands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_and_California_Railroad...
- Bayart 7y ago
  Zoom back a bit, and it looks like your landscape has dying GPU syndrome.