4 ms·

I agree in sentiment however then the burden shifts to proving that person C was not really person A, and therein lies the crux

lotsofpulp 7y ago
What's the problem with that? We have cameras, passwords, tokens, witnesses. Tell credit issuers to demand photo of person holding up ID and a thumbs up instead of just typing in a social security number. If that still results in too much fraud, then the lender is incentivized to do more research and verify in person that the person is who they say they are. Right now, in the interest of increasing commerce, we're forcing everyone in society to bear the burden of this specific fraud and the benefits go to the lenders. If person A is being defrauded by person B pretending to be person C, then person C has no reason to be involved unless they aided person B.
- skybrian 7y ago
  So, every consumer needs a computer with a web camera that can actually focus on their ID (not all do), plus we have to share pictures of ourselves holding our ID with anyone who asks for it. And then it will inevitably leak. This is placing the burden on consumers in a different way.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    I don’t see why anyone is entitled to credit via a couple form fields on a website. The burden is placed on the lender and the borrower. If the lender wants to come up with their own way that doesn’t need ID and a camera, they can. The burden is lifted from the rest of us who somehow got tasked with making sure lenders aren’t making errors with the risk of losing hours of our lives fixing someone else’s problem. It’s ridiculous that after your child is born, you’re supposed to spend your time to place a credit freeze at the 3 credit bureaus. Transfer the liability of identity fraud to the lenders, and they will figure out the solutions in no time.
  - jbreiding 7y ago
    Not the consumer as I read it but the credit issuer would have to collect this evidence, so they would have the burden. Also this would help build a reputation that is auditable of the credit issuers. This feels like an idea that would benefit consumers and be a business opportunity targeted at creditors if we could only convince them this is their responsibility.
cptskippy 7y ago
That would be the value add that companies like Equifax should offer as a B2B or B2C service. Instead of blindly attributing debit to profiles without verification, they could act as an intermediary to establish and verify credit relationships. Each party is verified and the relationship is verified to ensure non-repudiation.
- gruez 7y ago
  Isn't that what they already do? You apply for a credit card, get a few multiple choice identity questions, and if you answer them right, they assume you're the right person.
  - cptskippy 7y ago
    They're assuming, not verifying and the information they use is specious at best. It's sourced from 3rd parties and not verified by the individual. A perfect example of lack of verification and the weakness of their data is your history of addresses. Divorcees often find their ex's new residence will show up on their credit profile as their residence for years after being divorced. An identity verification system would require the individual establishing their identity with the credit agency and provide as much or as little credit establishing information. When a B2C transaction is established, the customer would provide the business with a token identifying the credit profile they want to use and the business would request a credit chect with it to the agency, and if the business accepts the credit score they can both acknowledge to the credit agency they wish to do business.
ajmurmann 7y ago
Innocent until proven guilty isn't it? If companies want to easily proof that someone did the transaction in question, all they have to do is verify the identity properly.
xoa 7y ago
>however then the burden shifts to proving that person C was not really person A First: No. The burden is on B to prove that C is A, the default should be that if they cannot quite definitively identify the counter party then tough cookies. And they need to do this while covering all expenses and time value with interest in the event they're mistaken. Second: if only! Most identity theft is not even remotely subtle. It's people walking in with mediocre quality forged documents or minimal info literally hundreds or thousands of miles from any location C has ever visited in their lives. Or someone randomly claiming to be C via some simple 10 digit government number and an email address C has never used. Etc etc. It's not exactly mission impossible hacking-a-passport-and-wearing-full-3D-facial-prosthetics-and-voice-changer stuff we're talking about here. Standard "ID theft" is just from a financial party with all the incentives to push through acceptance as frictionlessly as possible and then simply hound whomever they can try to pin it on and feed them into "debt collection" systems until most people cave. What the law needs to recognize is that everything about this should be literally criminal. The original criminal is the one who committed the original fraud. But everyone who goes along with it from then on out, every single 3rd party directly trying to steal money or time or whatever from the innocent victim, is an accessory to that fraud. All of them are involved, though as always they can seek (after paying their penalty) to shift expense/liability back up the chain if they can prove it. It's their fault for insufficiently verifying the original counter party, and then they've compounded it by seeking to defraud someone unrelated.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
paulddraper 7y ago
No. Party B thinks Party C owes them money. Party C thinks they do not owe Party B money. Party B sues Party C and shows (or not) by a preponderance of the evidence that Party C owes them money. The onus is on Party B.

lotsofpulp 7y ago

What's the problem with that? We have cameras, passwords, tokens, witnesses. Tell credit issuers to demand photo of person holding up ID and a thumbs up instead of just typing in a social security number. If that still results in too much fraud, then the lender is incentivized to do more research and verify in person that the person is who they say they are. Right now, in the interest of increasing commerce, we're forcing everyone in society to bear the burden of this specific fraud and the benefits go to the lenders. If person A is being defrauded by person B pretending to be person C, then person C has no reason to be involved unless they aided person B.

skybrian 7y ago
So, every consumer needs a computer with a web camera that can actually focus on their ID (not all do), plus we have to share pictures of ourselves holding our ID with anyone who asks for it. And then it will inevitably leak. This is placing the burden on consumers in a different way.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  I don’t see why anyone is entitled to credit via a couple form fields on a website. The burden is placed on the lender and the borrower. If the lender wants to come up with their own way that doesn’t need ID and a camera, they can. The burden is lifted from the rest of us who somehow got tasked with making sure lenders aren’t making errors with the risk of losing hours of our lives fixing someone else’s problem. It’s ridiculous that after your child is born, you’re supposed to spend your time to place a credit freeze at the 3 credit bureaus. Transfer the liability of identity fraud to the lenders, and they will figure out the solutions in no time.
- jbreiding 7y ago
  Not the consumer as I read it but the credit issuer would have to collect this evidence, so they would have the burden. Also this would help build a reputation that is auditable of the credit issuers. This feels like an idea that would benefit consumers and be a business opportunity targeted at creditors if we could only convince them this is their responsibility.

cptskippy 7y ago

That would be the value add that companies like Equifax should offer as a B2B or B2C service. Instead of blindly attributing debit to profiles without verification, they could act as an intermediary to establish and verify credit relationships. Each party is verified and the relationship is verified to ensure non-repudiation.

gruez 7y ago
Isn't that what they already do? You apply for a credit card, get a few multiple choice identity questions, and if you answer them right, they assume you're the right person.
- cptskippy 7y ago
  They're assuming, not verifying and the information they use is specious at best. It's sourced from 3rd parties and not verified by the individual. A perfect example of lack of verification and the weakness of their data is your history of addresses. Divorcees often find their ex's new residence will show up on their credit profile as their residence for years after being divorced. An identity verification system would require the individual establishing their identity with the credit agency and provide as much or as little credit establishing information. When a B2C transaction is established, the customer would provide the business with a token identifying the credit profile they want to use and the business would request a credit chect with it to the agency, and if the business accepts the credit score they can both acknowledge to the credit agency they wish to do business.

ajmurmann 7y ago

Innocent until proven guilty isn't it? If companies want to easily proof that someone did the transaction in question, all they have to do is verify the identity properly.

xoa 7y ago

>however then the burden shifts to proving that person C was not really person A First: No. The burden is on B to prove that C is A, the default should be that if they cannot quite definitively identify the counter party then tough cookies. And they need to do this while covering all expenses and time value with interest in the event they're mistaken. Second: if only! Most identity theft is not even remotely subtle. It's people walking in with mediocre quality forged documents or minimal info literally hundreds or thousands of miles from any location C has ever visited in their lives. Or someone randomly claiming to be C via some simple 10 digit government number and an email address C has never used. Etc etc. It's not exactly mission impossible hacking-a-passport-and-wearing-full-3D-facial-prosthetics-and-voice-changer stuff we're talking about here. Standard "ID theft" is just from a financial party with all the incentives to push through acceptance as frictionlessly as possible and then simply hound whomever they can try to pin it on and feed them into "debt collection" systems until most people cave. What the law needs to recognize is that everything about this should be literally criminal. The original criminal is the one who committed the original fraud. But everyone who goes along with it from then on out, every single 3rd party directly trying to steal money or time or whatever from the innocent victim, is an accessory to that fraud. All of them are involved, though as always they can seek (after paying their penalty) to shift expense/liability back up the chain if they can prove it. It's their fault for insufficiently verifying the original counter party, and then they've compounded it by seeking to defraud someone unrelated.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

paulddraper 7y ago

No. Party B thinks Party C owes them money. Party C thinks they do not owe Party B money. Party B sues Party C and shows (or not) by a preponderance of the evidence that Party C owes them money. The onus is on Party B.