4 ms·

It's worth mentioning that in case of ambiguity (people with the same name born the same day in the same city) the algorithm solves it by allowing the 7 numbers

It's worth mentioning that in case of ambiguity (people with the same name born the same day in the same city) the algorithm solves it by allowing the 7 numbers in the code to be replaced with letters, thus allowing up to 128 variations of the same fiscal code

jaclaz 7y ago
Again to be picky, not really-really, the algorithm does very little. If there is not "homocody" the algorithm is "enough". If there is, then it is allowed to use an algorithm to calculate a different code, BUT this can only be done by the Agenzia delle Entrate that keeps all codes in a database to avoid duplications: https://quifinanza.it/tasse/codice-fiscale-come-si-calcola-e-come-si-corregge-in-caso-di-omocodia/1708/ https://quifinanza.it/tasse/codice-fiscale-come-si-calcola-e... Since the Codice Fiscale comes physically as a credit-card-like piece of plastic, there are no real issues with these "non-regular" codes in person, but - as carlob stated - a lot of online modules (which tend to verify the validity of the supplied Codice Fiscale against the "normal algorithm" applied to the other data supplied in the form, in an attempt to minimize errors/typos) do not usually recognize these "manually" generated by the Agency codes and reject the form. In a perfect world such forms should warn the user that the Codice Fiscale is not valid (i.e. cannot be recreated by the "normal" algorithm) and provide the possibility to explicitly confirm.
- ithkuil 7y ago
  I've also witnessed the opposite problem: a government office roughly equivalent to the DMV (motorizzazione civile) registering a driving license with a codice fiscale provided by person without checking that it was actually issued by the government. 15 yeas later, another person in a different city, miles away, argued loudly, while trying to file the request to convert a foreign driving license, that she 100% sure she didn't already have a driving license in Italy. (Source: I was waiting in line for my turn and heard every word, increasingly feeling a Kafkaesque grip in my stomach and hoping to never get on the wrong side of Italian burocracy. fwiw, they didn't solve the issue during that session)
  - jaclaz 7y ago
    >fwiw, they didn't solve the issue during that session Sure, that's normal, they could not. It is anyway (even if caused by a different issue) a case of "homocody". These can only be solved by the Agenzia delle Entrate or - in some cases - they cannot even be solved by them and you need to resort to other means. And yes, being on the wrong side of bureaucracy is never a good place to be in, the Italian one (but more generally that of any nation with a similar approach, let's call them "Latin", I have personal experience with Spain and Portugal besides Italy, and they are rather similar) is a bit more complex than corresponding anglo-saxonish or germanish ones, but it depends a lot on the specific cases. The Italian Motorizzazione Civile suffers historically from lack of personnel and the intertwining of "traffic Laws" with "General Law", things - recently - are getting a little better because of simplifications on the legal definition of car as property, but until a few years ago a "simple" change of ownership of a vehicle (what you normally do in the UK by mail and in Germany by going to the nearest Police station) was a terrible experience, usually taking months to obtain the new certification.
    - ithkuil 7y ago
      In this case the central registry couldn't solve the problem, because it was not their fault. Both persons had two distinct personal codes, issued officially by the "agenzia delle entrate" office. It's when the motor vehicle driving license of person A has been registered, that a transcription error happened. Whether that instance could have been avoided with a more careful check or not misses the point. The point is that data entry errors are possible. As this little anecdote exemplifies, having a unique citizens code doesn't prevent the confusion of identities. It makes it less frequent which in turn makes it a worse experience for those to whom it happens (since officials have no training to solve the issue). E.g. the software at the "motorizzazione civile" is likely to treat the CF field with a "unique" constraint, which turns out to be a problem when a new user enters the system with a strong proof of legitimate ownership of a code that was likely erroneously used in the past.
      - jaclaz 7y ago
        Ah, well, then it was not a "homocody" issue, only a "bad transcription" or "human error". It is not surprising that having a unique citizens code doesn't prevent the confusion of identities when the transcription/inscription is not accurate. But with all due respect, it is only a truism. Which however opens the usual dicotomy between frequency of the problems and procedures designed to fix them, it is likely that an extremely rare problem has no "easy fix" exactly because it is rare and maybe it was the first time it happened to the DMV employees involved and there was not an already actually "coded" resolution. On the other hand, when a problem happens often enough, there will be a ready made, "common" solution to it and even if the high frequency of the problem is actually a sign of an original bad implementation, the public will not perceive it as an issue.

jaclaz 7y ago

Again to be picky, not really-really, the algorithm does very little. If there is not "homocody" the algorithm is "enough". If there is, then it is allowed to use an algorithm to calculate a different code, BUT this can only be done by the Agenzia delle Entrate that keeps all codes in a database to avoid duplications: https://quifinanza.it/tasse/codice-fiscale-come-si-calcola-e-come-si-corregge-in-caso-di-omocodia/1708/ https://quifinanza.it/tasse/codice-fiscale-come-si-calcola-e... Since the Codice Fiscale comes physically as a credit-card-like piece of plastic, there are no real issues with these "non-regular" codes in person, but - as carlob stated - a lot of online modules (which tend to verify the validity of the supplied Codice Fiscale against the "normal algorithm" applied to the other data supplied in the form, in an attempt to minimize errors/typos) do not usually recognize these "manually" generated by the Agency codes and reject the form. In a perfect world such forms should warn the user that the Codice Fiscale is not valid (i.e. cannot be recreated by the "normal" algorithm) and provide the possibility to explicitly confirm.

ithkuil 7y ago
I've also witnessed the opposite problem: a government office roughly equivalent to the DMV (motorizzazione civile) registering a driving license with a codice fiscale provided by person without checking that it was actually issued by the government. 15 yeas later, another person in a different city, miles away, argued loudly, while trying to file the request to convert a foreign driving license, that she 100% sure she didn't already have a driving license in Italy. (Source: I was waiting in line for my turn and heard every word, increasingly feeling a Kafkaesque grip in my stomach and hoping to never get on the wrong side of Italian burocracy. fwiw, they didn't solve the issue during that session)
- jaclaz 7y ago
  >fwiw, they didn't solve the issue during that session Sure, that's normal, they could not. It is anyway (even if caused by a different issue) a case of "homocody". These can only be solved by the Agenzia delle Entrate or - in some cases - they cannot even be solved by them and you need to resort to other means. And yes, being on the wrong side of bureaucracy is never a good place to be in, the Italian one (but more generally that of any nation with a similar approach, let's call them "Latin", I have personal experience with Spain and Portugal besides Italy, and they are rather similar) is a bit more complex than corresponding anglo-saxonish or germanish ones, but it depends a lot on the specific cases. The Italian Motorizzazione Civile suffers historically from lack of personnel and the intertwining of "traffic Laws" with "General Law", things - recently - are getting a little better because of simplifications on the legal definition of car as property, but until a few years ago a "simple" change of ownership of a vehicle (what you normally do in the UK by mail and in Germany by going to the nearest Police station) was a terrible experience, usually taking months to obtain the new certification.
  - ithkuil 7y ago
    In this case the central registry couldn't solve the problem, because it was not their fault. Both persons had two distinct personal codes, issued officially by the "agenzia delle entrate" office. It's when the motor vehicle driving license of person A has been registered, that a transcription error happened. Whether that instance could have been avoided with a more careful check or not misses the point. The point is that data entry errors are possible. As this little anecdote exemplifies, having a unique citizens code doesn't prevent the confusion of identities. It makes it less frequent which in turn makes it a worse experience for those to whom it happens (since officials have no training to solve the issue). E.g. the software at the "motorizzazione civile" is likely to treat the CF field with a "unique" constraint, which turns out to be a problem when a new user enters the system with a strong proof of legitimate ownership of a code that was likely erroneously used in the past.
    - jaclaz 7y ago
      Ah, well, then it was not a "homocody" issue, only a "bad transcription" or "human error". It is not surprising that having a unique citizens code doesn't prevent the confusion of identities when the transcription/inscription is not accurate. But with all due respect, it is only a truism. Which however opens the usual dicotomy between frequency of the problems and procedures designed to fix them, it is likely that an extremely rare problem has no "easy fix" exactly because it is rare and maybe it was the first time it happened to the DMV employees involved and there was not an already actually "coded" resolution. On the other hand, when a problem happens often enough, there will be a ready made, "common" solution to it and even if the high frequency of the problem is actually a sign of an original bad implementation, the public will not perceive it as an issue.