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> One could say they’re “cursed” to be given that sexual preference they were born with. Were they, though? I did some light research for a university course m

by dao- 7y ago

> One could say they’re “cursed” to be given that sexual preference they were born with. Were they, though? I did some light research for a university course many years ago and from what I understand/remember, many pedophiles were themselves abused in their childhood, which can really mess up a developing brain. Still cursed, just in a slightly different even more tragic way.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
matt-attack 7y ago
> Were they though? I suspect the propensity to rape is what is learned. I’d question whether the pure attraction is formed by the abuse you describe. We should recall those a decade ago, suggesting that homosexuality was a “disorder” needing to be cured. A disorder implying that it was caused by some incident. Clearly that line of thinking is outdated and offensive to many. Either way the source is of the attraction is moot. The fact is we live amongst pedophiles and there’s no reason they should be reviled.
- throwanem 7y ago
  CSA survivor here. Can you fucking not? Maybe you're even right, and there's no reason they should be reviled. But there's no reason they should be normalized, either. Not to themselves, not to anyone else. Your comparison with homosexuality is false and invidious, because homosexuality exists among consenting adults and can therefore be expressed without harm. This is not true of pedophilia. Nor will it ever be. So your efforts at normalization cannot lead to anything other than an increased likelihood of harm. Having experienced that harm firsthand on multiple occasions, I have no problem whatsoever in saying that it is heinous to act in ways which make it more likely that others will suffer the same.
  - matt-attack 7y ago
    > homosexuality exists among consenting adults No it doesn't. I'm gay, and I could be on a desert island with not a soul in sight, or I could be the last man alive on planet Earth and I will still be gay. I do not need anyone else to have my identity. This is because homosexuality is a trait of one person and his/her attraction. I am attracted to men whether or not there is a consenting man present on the planet. Just like you may be heterosexual but never have a date in your life. Not being able to attract a partner does not cause you to change who you're attracted to. One does have to stop calling oneself heterosexual just because they're ugly and no one will go out with them. You see? There is no consent. Because there isn't anyone else. You've missed the entire point of my post. It's this: One's attraction needs to be de-coupled from the sex that a person may or may not partake in. You've conflated attraction and the act of sex. Pedophilia is about the former not the latter.
    - throwanem 7y ago
      Even granting everything you've just said, which I do only for the sake of argument, I see no good end to normalizing the idea that even pedophilia qua attraction, as you have it, is in any way okay. Sure, I can see where that'd be a cross to bear. Bearing it in public silence, with the support of others who share your affliction and are willing to offer understanding, seems like a strongly preferable option. I don't understand what you hope to gain by this crusade, and I am unconcerned with whatever judgment you may make of me for saying that I doubt the rectitude of your motives in pursuing it. Even the people who molested me never argued to anyone that the urge which helped move them to do so wasn't a problem. They'd be as horrified and disgusted as I am to hear you argue that it's not. They were ashamed not only of what they'd done, but also of why they'd done it. They should have been, too. But even after what they did to me, I have more respect for them than for you. (I'm gay, too. Don't conflate that with this. We had enough problems being associated with NAMBLA through big-tent naïveté back decades ago, and no one will thank you or think well of you for arguing we should make the same damnfool mistake another time.)
      - dragonwriter 7y ago
        > I see no good end to normalizing the idea that even pedophilia qua attraction, as you have it, is in any way okay. Just as with drug and alcohol addiction, destigmatizing the condition as a moral failing removes a barrier to acknowledgement and seeking (and continuing) treatment, which reduces the likelihood and severity of the condition producing socially harmful behaviors. In the case of pedophilia, I think that's a pretty big win, but obviously that's a matter of the relative priority of expressing moral revulsion compared to preventing harmful action. > They were ashamed not only of what they'd done, but also of why they'd done it. Clearly that shame associated with the orientation didn't do any good in preventing the harmful action, so maybe it's worth considering whether the stigma around the orientation is useful or counterproductive. “People feel shane about having pedophilic orientation but still go out and molest children” doesn't seem to me to be as compelling an argument as you seem to think it is for the social utility of the stigma it references.

by dao- 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

matt-attack 7y ago

> Were they though? I suspect the propensity to rape is what is learned. I’d question whether the pure attraction is formed by the abuse you describe. We should recall those a decade ago, suggesting that homosexuality was a “disorder” needing to be cured. A disorder implying that it was caused by some incident. Clearly that line of thinking is outdated and offensive to many. Either way the source is of the attraction is moot. The fact is we live amongst pedophiles and there’s no reason they should be reviled.

throwanem 7y ago
CSA survivor here. Can you fucking not? Maybe you're even right, and there's no reason they should be reviled. But there's no reason they should be normalized, either. Not to themselves, not to anyone else. Your comparison with homosexuality is false and invidious, because homosexuality exists among consenting adults and can therefore be expressed without harm. This is not true of pedophilia. Nor will it ever be. So your efforts at normalization cannot lead to anything other than an increased likelihood of harm. Having experienced that harm firsthand on multiple occasions, I have no problem whatsoever in saying that it is heinous to act in ways which make it more likely that others will suffer the same.
- matt-attack 7y ago
  > homosexuality exists among consenting adults No it doesn't. I'm gay, and I could be on a desert island with not a soul in sight, or I could be the last man alive on planet Earth and I will still be gay. I do not need anyone else to have my identity. This is because homosexuality is a trait of one person and his/her attraction. I am attracted to men whether or not there is a consenting man present on the planet. Just like you may be heterosexual but never have a date in your life. Not being able to attract a partner does not cause you to change who you're attracted to. One does have to stop calling oneself heterosexual just because they're ugly and no one will go out with them. You see? There is no consent. Because there isn't anyone else. You've missed the entire point of my post. It's this: One's attraction needs to be de-coupled from the sex that a person may or may not partake in. You've conflated attraction and the act of sex. Pedophilia is about the former not the latter.
  - throwanem 7y ago
    Even granting everything you've just said, which I do only for the sake of argument, I see no good end to normalizing the idea that even pedophilia qua attraction, as you have it, is in any way okay. Sure, I can see where that'd be a cross to bear. Bearing it in public silence, with the support of others who share your affliction and are willing to offer understanding, seems like a strongly preferable option. I don't understand what you hope to gain by this crusade, and I am unconcerned with whatever judgment you may make of me for saying that I doubt the rectitude of your motives in pursuing it. Even the people who molested me never argued to anyone that the urge which helped move them to do so wasn't a problem. They'd be as horrified and disgusted as I am to hear you argue that it's not. They were ashamed not only of what they'd done, but also of why they'd done it. They should have been, too. But even after what they did to me, I have more respect for them than for you. (I'm gay, too. Don't conflate that with this. We had enough problems being associated with NAMBLA through big-tent naïveté back decades ago, and no one will thank you or think well of you for arguing we should make the same damnfool mistake another time.)
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      > I see no good end to normalizing the idea that even pedophilia qua attraction, as you have it, is in any way okay. Just as with drug and alcohol addiction, destigmatizing the condition as a moral failing removes a barrier to acknowledgement and seeking (and continuing) treatment, which reduces the likelihood and severity of the condition producing socially harmful behaviors. In the case of pedophilia, I think that's a pretty big win, but obviously that's a matter of the relative priority of expressing moral revulsion compared to preventing harmful action. > They were ashamed not only of what they'd done, but also of why they'd done it. Clearly that shame associated with the orientation didn't do any good in preventing the harmful action, so maybe it's worth considering whether the stigma around the orientation is useful or counterproductive. “People feel shane about having pedophilic orientation but still go out and molest children” doesn't seem to me to be as compelling an argument as you seem to think it is for the social utility of the stigma it references.