6 ms·

> IDs were being asked for by police and others as a matter of course rather than of suspicion. Is the existence of an ID really the problem there? I like the

by Iv 7y ago

> IDs were being asked for by police and others as a matter of course rather than of suspicion. Is the existence of an ID really the problem there? I like the idea that having to provide an ID is optional and the police can't force someone to comply without a good reason, but the existence of an UID for people seems really necessary in a lot of cases, to prove someone did not vote 10 times in an election, to track your pension state, your debts, your condemnations (I don't want someone to confuse me with a criminal of the same name!)

NeedMoreTea 7y ago
UID per se no. Asking for it, most definitely yes. This is a hill I would die on. I have a passport and driving licence. I can be asked to produce my driving licence in limited circumstances (suspected of driving offences and stopped) at a police station within 7 days. Every other production of ID is optional, except passport at international ports. No ID needed for NHS care, dental care - there's an NHS number but I haven't the foggiest what it is. It's unconnected with my criminal record or lack, my debts, my pension etc etc. To vote I have to be on the electoral role, which is a special purpose UID, and can be hidden from public view. None of these are wrapped in an all encompassing national ID. They are specific to purpose, and should remain localised to that purpose. e.g. My employer will want my NI Number for pension and tax contributions. I don't have to produce ID to the police, though I can be asked to identify myself. If arrested and I claim to be Winston Churchill I can probably expect a little more than average checking. Circumstantial proof of ID is more than enough in most cases. If I want to apply for my first passport there are ways of acceptably identifying myself without any other form of ID. We've managed without for 70 years without reducing ourselves to a banana republic (You may feel Brexit is doing that). :)
- Iv 7y ago
  So you are in favor of several national IDs, but just don't want one? I must say I don't follow. Forbidding to interconnect personal files is a different issue than having an individual UID And I would be VERY surprised if the UK government was unable to connect passport IDs and criminal records.
- kgwgk 7y ago
  Note that, right or wrong, this is the kind of attitude that made Brexit happen.
  - ghaff 7y ago
    And it's why, to a lot of Americans with no horse in the race, certain aspects of Brexit seem quite understandable even when they are in a different class/income level than most Brexit voters are. Not making a political statement. But suspicion of national registration/ID/papers is much more prevalent in some countries than others.
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    I really don't understand how. Ireland doesn't require ID either. You could visit Dublin on the ferry from England showing no papers other than your ferry ticket, bought for cash as you walked on to the boat, and I'm pretty sure vice versa. Even when there were the armed checkpoints between North and South. Did this quite a few times. I see no significant support for an "Iexit", so it can't be connected with ID, or attitudes to it, but the disingenuous politicians and right of centre British media stories on the EU. Murdoch et al. As far as I know no EU citizens were required to have additional identity requirements, or present anything for NHS treatment, until the actions of the current and previous Tory governments. Which I found offensive in the extreme. FWIW I voted remain. If I travel to a country in the EU or elsewhere that requires ID, I carry ID. I'd have my passport anyway. I might wish they had a similar attitude to ID, for the reasons stated.
    - kgwgk 7y ago
      All the EU countries except for Denmark, Ireland and UK have identity cards. All the EU countries except for Ireland and UK are part of the Schengen Area (or are obliged to join in the future, for some recent members). It remains to be seen what Ireland status is once UK is out, depending on what kind of border is put in place between them. The trend in the EU is for more control (regarding IDs and in many other issues) and this was not well appreciated by many UK citizens.
      - 7y ago
- DanBC 7y ago
  > I can be asked to produce my driving licence in limited circumstances (suspected of driving offences and stopped) at a police station within 7 days You must stop when asked to by a police officer. They don't have to suspect an offence. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/163 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/163 You must produce, when asked, your documents. They don't have to suspect an offence. Not producing when asked is committing an offence, but there's a defence if you produce your papers within 7 days at your nearest police station. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164 > No ID needed for NHS care, There's no ID needed for primary care or emergency care. You may be asked to prove ID if you get secondary care. The NHS number is irrelevant for whether you get charged or not. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/767905/guidance-on-implementing-the-overseas-visitor-charging-regulations.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... > I don't have to produce ID to the police https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/117572/pcso-powers.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... It is an offence to refuse to give your details or to give false details to a PCSO (so not even a police officer) if they think you have littered or they think you have behaved anti-socially. Or they think you're part of a group that includes some people who've behaved anti-socially and they've asked the group to disperse.
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    > stop when asked to by a police officer My mistake, I thought there was a need for cause for a producer. Such as the made up "faulty brake light" that miraculously starts working again when you have stopped, or you just got pulled for speeding etc. :) > prove ID if you get secondary care Yeah, that's the newly minted, and rather offensive regs from Theresa, in the govt mission against immigration, most of which always been from outside the EU. It was previously much the same for Brits and EU citizens as I understand it. From a quick glance of the link it seems to generate a couple of absurdities along the prove you don't need to prove ID lines that's been in the UK:Ireland travel area a while. ID to the police or PCSO Yes, they can ask for my name and address, and I'm expected to be truthful as they may check. They can't demand documentary evidence of same such as my papers or driving licence when not in control of a vehicle. They might go away and check against their records, electoral role and so on. They might ask if I can confirm this, and much of the time I can honestly answer "no" without problem. They'll have more to say if I claim to be M. Mouse of 10 Downing St. Obviously if arrested they can search and find any circumstantial or actual evidence of ID, like a bank card or driving licence, that will hopefully match the name provided earlier.
philwelch 7y ago
Interestingly, voter ID laws are massively controversial in the US. The rationale is because they have disproportionate effects on African-Americans, and that voter fraud (eg somebody voting ten times in an election) does not seem to actually happen that frequently anyway.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  as I understand it, voter ID laws are controversial because certain groups of people are less likely to have official ID. in general, if you don't drive or leave the country, you don't need a state-issued ID. if the federal government issued an ID to every citizen of the US, you couldn't argue that the requirement disproportionately impeded minorities from voting; they already have the ID! of course, there are many other reasons why a mandatory national ID would be politically unfeasible in the US.
  - philwelch 7y ago
    If you don’t drive, leave the country, fly on airlines, buy alcohol or tobacco, patronize establishments legally designated as certain categories of alcohol-serving establishments or adult entertainment venues, have a bank account, or have an actual job that would require you to fill out an I-9, you might be able to live in America without ID. But it seems really, really hard.
kragen 7y ago
In places without any kind of unique ID, multiple voting is often prevented by dyeing your thumbnail after voting. This is sufficient to keep voter fraud down to insignificant levels. The UK commenter points out that a number specific to the voting process is also adequate to the purpose. Pension accounts can similarly be identified by numbers specific to the money in question, and in that case there's not even any requirement for being one to one—your pension contributions from different years can and possibly should be in separate, unlinked accounts. Certainly there is no benefit, and potentially enormous harm, in linking your pension to your voting.

by Iv 7y ago

NeedMoreTea 7y ago

UID per se no. Asking for it, most definitely yes. This is a hill I would die on. I have a passport and driving licence. I can be asked to produce my driving licence in limited circumstances (suspected of driving offences and stopped) at a police station within 7 days. Every other production of ID is optional, except passport at international ports. No ID needed for NHS care, dental care - there's an NHS number but I haven't the foggiest what it is. It's unconnected with my criminal record or lack, my debts, my pension etc etc. To vote I have to be on the electoral role, which is a special purpose UID, and can be hidden from public view. None of these are wrapped in an all encompassing national ID. They are specific to purpose, and should remain localised to that purpose. e.g. My employer will want my NI Number for pension and tax contributions. I don't have to produce ID to the police, though I can be asked to identify myself. If arrested and I claim to be Winston Churchill I can probably expect a little more than average checking. Circumstantial proof of ID is more than enough in most cases. If I want to apply for my first passport there are ways of acceptably identifying myself without any other form of ID. We've managed without for 70 years without reducing ourselves to a banana republic (You may feel Brexit is doing that). :)

Iv 7y ago
So you are in favor of several national IDs, but just don't want one? I must say I don't follow. Forbidding to interconnect personal files is a different issue than having an individual UID And I would be VERY surprised if the UK government was unable to connect passport IDs and criminal records.
kgwgk 7y ago
Note that, right or wrong, this is the kind of attitude that made Brexit happen.
- ghaff 7y ago
  And it's why, to a lot of Americans with no horse in the race, certain aspects of Brexit seem quite understandable even when they are in a different class/income level than most Brexit voters are. Not making a political statement. But suspicion of national registration/ID/papers is much more prevalent in some countries than others.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  I really don't understand how. Ireland doesn't require ID either. You could visit Dublin on the ferry from England showing no papers other than your ferry ticket, bought for cash as you walked on to the boat, and I'm pretty sure vice versa. Even when there were the armed checkpoints between North and South. Did this quite a few times. I see no significant support for an "Iexit", so it can't be connected with ID, or attitudes to it, but the disingenuous politicians and right of centre British media stories on the EU. Murdoch et al. As far as I know no EU citizens were required to have additional identity requirements, or present anything for NHS treatment, until the actions of the current and previous Tory governments. Which I found offensive in the extreme. FWIW I voted remain. If I travel to a country in the EU or elsewhere that requires ID, I carry ID. I'd have my passport anyway. I might wish they had a similar attitude to ID, for the reasons stated.
  - kgwgk 7y ago
    All the EU countries except for Denmark, Ireland and UK have identity cards. All the EU countries except for Ireland and UK are part of the Schengen Area (or are obliged to join in the future, for some recent members). It remains to be seen what Ireland status is once UK is out, depending on what kind of border is put in place between them. The trend in the EU is for more control (regarding IDs and in many other issues) and this was not well appreciated by many UK citizens.
    - 7y ago
DanBC 7y ago
> I can be asked to produce my driving licence in limited circumstances (suspected of driving offences and stopped) at a police station within 7 days You must stop when asked to by a police officer. They don't have to suspect an offence. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/163 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/163 You must produce, when asked, your documents. They don't have to suspect an offence. Not producing when asked is committing an offence, but there's a defence if you produce your papers within 7 days at your nearest police station. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164 > No ID needed for NHS care, There's no ID needed for primary care or emergency care. You may be asked to prove ID if you get secondary care. The NHS number is irrelevant for whether you get charged or not. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/767905/guidance-on-implementing-the-overseas-visitor-charging-regulations.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... > I don't have to produce ID to the police https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/117572/pcso-powers.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... It is an offence to refuse to give your details or to give false details to a PCSO (so not even a police officer) if they think you have littered or they think you have behaved anti-socially. Or they think you're part of a group that includes some people who've behaved anti-socially and they've asked the group to disperse.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  > stop when asked to by a police officer My mistake, I thought there was a need for cause for a producer. Such as the made up "faulty brake light" that miraculously starts working again when you have stopped, or you just got pulled for speeding etc. :) > prove ID if you get secondary care Yeah, that's the newly minted, and rather offensive regs from Theresa, in the govt mission against immigration, most of which always been from outside the EU. It was previously much the same for Brits and EU citizens as I understand it. From a quick glance of the link it seems to generate a couple of absurdities along the prove you don't need to prove ID lines that's been in the UK:Ireland travel area a while. ID to the police or PCSO Yes, they can ask for my name and address, and I'm expected to be truthful as they may check. They can't demand documentary evidence of same such as my papers or driving licence when not in control of a vehicle. They might go away and check against their records, electoral role and so on. They might ask if I can confirm this, and much of the time I can honestly answer "no" without problem. They'll have more to say if I claim to be M. Mouse of 10 Downing St. Obviously if arrested they can search and find any circumstantial or actual evidence of ID, like a bank card or driving licence, that will hopefully match the name provided earlier.

philwelch 7y ago

Interestingly, voter ID laws are massively controversial in the US. The rationale is because they have disproportionate effects on African-Americans, and that voter fraud (eg somebody voting ten times in an election) does not seem to actually happen that frequently anyway.

leetcrew 7y ago
as I understand it, voter ID laws are controversial because certain groups of people are less likely to have official ID. in general, if you don't drive or leave the country, you don't need a state-issued ID. if the federal government issued an ID to every citizen of the US, you couldn't argue that the requirement disproportionately impeded minorities from voting; they already have the ID! of course, there are many other reasons why a mandatory national ID would be politically unfeasible in the US.
- philwelch 7y ago
  If you don’t drive, leave the country, fly on airlines, buy alcohol or tobacco, patronize establishments legally designated as certain categories of alcohol-serving establishments or adult entertainment venues, have a bank account, or have an actual job that would require you to fill out an I-9, you might be able to live in America without ID. But it seems really, really hard.

kragen 7y ago

In places without any kind of unique ID, multiple voting is often prevented by dyeing your thumbnail after voting. This is sufficient to keep voter fraud down to insignificant levels. The UK commenter points out that a number specific to the voting process is also adequate to the purpose. Pension accounts can similarly be identified by numbers specific to the money in question, and in that case there's not even any requirement for being one to one—your pension contributions from different years can and possibly should be in separate, unlinked accounts. Certainly there is no benefit, and potentially enormous harm, in linking your pension to your voting.