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Texas resident here. If you have ever driven by a refinery of any type you will see where energy goes. The shear amount of energy to convert oil to usable gas/p

by elamje 7y ago

Texas resident here. If you have ever driven by a refinery of any type you will see where energy goes. The shear amount of energy to convert oil to usable gas/plastics/etc. is pretty crazy. Texas has the biggest oil refinery presence in the US (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_refining_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_refining_in_the_Un...) Refineries don’t just make gasoline, but plastic, engine oil, industrial lubricant. That being said, wiki will tell you 85% of refinery output goes to gasoline, diesel, home heating oil, and aviation fuel.

mirimir 7y ago
Thanks. That was my guess. I mean, I didn't think that aluminum production was big there. I wonder what the energy efficiency of petroleum refining is. From the US DOE,[0] I get: TBtu 3542 primary energy 2082 applied energy 1460 energy lost So ~59%. That's a lot of energy to blow off. 0) https://www.energy.gov/eere/amo/dynamic-manufacturing-energy-sankey-tool-2010-units-trillion-btu https://www.energy.gov/eere/amo/dynamic-manufacturing-energy...
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  This illustrates something that is curiously lacking from most ICE vs BEV energy efficiency calculations, namely: More electricity is spent just refining the gasoline used by an ICE than is used in total by a BEV to go the same distance.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    Sure. But it can be generated on refinery sites, using solids and extremely nonvolatile fractions as fuel. I suspect that using outside electricity is a purely economic issue. That is, when the value of additional products produced is greater than the cost of extra electricity needed. So in that sense, oil refineries are like aluminum refineries, in that they can store surplus electricity.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    Damn, I wasn't thinking this through clearly. And it's damn complicated. The relevant comparison is arguably greenhouse gas emissions per km. For ICE, you clearly must include emissions during refining. But that could be ~zero, if all the process energy were wind, solar or nuclear electricity. Or it could be an additional 70%, if all the process energy were petroleum. So the range is 1.0-1.7 times nominal fuel emissions. For BEV, total emissions could be ~zero, if all the electricity were wind, solar or nuclear. But if the electricity were generated from fossil fuels, you'd have nominal fuel emissions plus both refining process energy and generation loss. Electricity from natural gas could be the clear winner, because you get additional energy from two H2 for C converted to CO2. Unless leakage were too great. And there's ~no conversion loss in the vehicle. So that's maybe 0.4-0.7 relative to gasoline/diesel fuel emissions. Electricity from coal and petroleum would clearly be worse. For coal, because there's ~no H2, and because generation efficiency is lower than for natural gas. And for petroleum, because you have the 0%-70% process energy, less H2 per C, and somewhat lower generation efficiency. But there's ~no conversion loss in the vehicle for either. So overall that's maybe 0.8-1.4 relative to gasoline/diesel fuel emissions. Bottom line, relative to nominal ICE fuel emissions: ICE ~1 to ~1.7 BEV ~0 to ~1.4 But hey, those are totally thumbnail estimates.
dinofacedude 7y ago
This exactly. I lived in Lumberton near Beaumont for a few years and the paper mill made most of the town stink at the time. I moved to Mount Pleasant for another few years and the entire town's industry centers around the pilgrim's pride chicken factory. The entire town, coincidentally, smells like raw chicken.
- mirimir 7y ago
  I recall a tour of a kraft (softwood paper) mill. There was a water spray unit (like you'd see in a car wash) at the parking lot exit. To keep SOx deposits from dissolving employees' vehicles.

by elamje 7y ago

mirimir 7y ago

Thanks. That was my guess. I mean, I didn't think that aluminum production was big there. I wonder what the energy efficiency of petroleum refining is. From the US DOE,[0] I get: TBtu 3542 primary energy 2082 applied energy 1460 energy lost So ~59%. That's a lot of energy to blow off. 0) https://www.energy.gov/eere/amo/dynamic-manufacturing-energy-sankey-tool-2010-units-trillion-btu https://www.energy.gov/eere/amo/dynamic-manufacturing-energy...

CydeWeys 7y ago
This illustrates something that is curiously lacking from most ICE vs BEV energy efficiency calculations, namely: More electricity is spent just refining the gasoline used by an ICE than is used in total by a BEV to go the same distance.
- mirimir 7y ago
  Sure. But it can be generated on refinery sites, using solids and extremely nonvolatile fractions as fuel. I suspect that using outside electricity is a purely economic issue. That is, when the value of additional products produced is greater than the cost of extra electricity needed. So in that sense, oil refineries are like aluminum refineries, in that they can store surplus electricity.
- mirimir 7y ago
  Damn, I wasn't thinking this through clearly. And it's damn complicated. The relevant comparison is arguably greenhouse gas emissions per km. For ICE, you clearly must include emissions during refining. But that could be ~zero, if all the process energy were wind, solar or nuclear electricity. Or it could be an additional 70%, if all the process energy were petroleum. So the range is 1.0-1.7 times nominal fuel emissions. For BEV, total emissions could be ~zero, if all the electricity were wind, solar or nuclear. But if the electricity were generated from fossil fuels, you'd have nominal fuel emissions plus both refining process energy and generation loss. Electricity from natural gas could be the clear winner, because you get additional energy from two H2 for C converted to CO2. Unless leakage were too great. And there's ~no conversion loss in the vehicle. So that's maybe 0.4-0.7 relative to gasoline/diesel fuel emissions. Electricity from coal and petroleum would clearly be worse. For coal, because there's ~no H2, and because generation efficiency is lower than for natural gas. And for petroleum, because you have the 0%-70% process energy, less H2 per C, and somewhat lower generation efficiency. But there's ~no conversion loss in the vehicle for either. So overall that's maybe 0.8-1.4 relative to gasoline/diesel fuel emissions. Bottom line, relative to nominal ICE fuel emissions: ICE ~1 to ~1.7 BEV ~0 to ~1.4 But hey, those are totally thumbnail estimates.

dinofacedude 7y ago

This exactly. I lived in Lumberton near Beaumont for a few years and the paper mill made most of the town stink at the time. I moved to Mount Pleasant for another few years and the entire town's industry centers around the pilgrim's pride chicken factory. The entire town, coincidentally, smells like raw chicken.

mirimir 7y ago
I recall a tour of a kraft (softwood paper) mill. There was a water spray unit (like you'd see in a car wash) at the parking lot exit. To keep SOx deposits from dissolving employees' vehicles.