4 ms·

How do you know if its non-existent if you cant even measure it from lack of proper identification?

vkou 7y ago
Well, we do have evidence that voter fraud - in the form of preventing people who can vote from voting, through imposition of onerous voting requirements is rampant. Denying the vote to someone who has the right to vote is mathematically just as problematic as granting it to someone who does not have the right.
- manigandham 7y ago
  True both situations are not good, however right's are still subject to legal requirements when being exercised. For example, the right to bear arms still requires a background check to ensure you can own a weapon. You can also lose your right to vote if you commit a felony but this significant disenfranchisement affecting millions gets no coverage. Why is voting, which is critical to a democracy, considered onerous for requiring identification when driving, employment, banking, business and govt. programs all require it? Isn't that a strange balance?
jakelazaroff 7y ago
How does an ID enable you to measure voter fraud?
- manigandham 7y ago
  Because you can check and measure who is actually eligible to vote before they vote. Let me ask, why do we have identification for joining a company? Checking employment status? Boarding a flight? Starting a business? Opening a bank account? Getting government assistance? Why would that be necessary but not for voting?
  - jakelazaroff 7y ago
    I'm not asking about prevention or why voter ID makes sense in general; I'm asking how it enables measurement of voter fraud. We already have a record of everyone who voted and their address and identifying information such as driver's license number or social security number. What additional information does an ID provide?
    - manigandham 7y ago
      How do you know that information is accurate and matches the individual? For example, for all those situations I described, why is ID required when you can also just provide the information instead? Can you walk into a bank and provide your info without verification? Requiring ID allows us to measure when fraud is occuring by individuals attempting to submit votes and data that is not theirs. Otherwise, there is no "truth" to compare to. I guess we can always call every single person and verify their vote, but then is that not the same thing as an ID check?
      - dragonwriter 7y ago
        > Requiring ID allows us to measure when fraud is occuring by individuals attempting to submit votes and data that is not theirs. No, it doesn't; it is neither necessary (as such fraud can be detected by other means) nor sufficient (as even with an ID requirement fraud can be performed without detection) for that purpose.
        manigandham 7y ago
        Ok, I guess I still haven't seen any clear details on this so can you please answer the questions I asked in this thread? Why are other situations not an issue for requiring ID but voting is? How can we detect fraud by other means, and why can't these other services also do that? Does the fact that nothing is infallible mean it shouldn't be used? If you didn't vote but someone used your information, how do you catch that without some form of verification?

vkou 7y ago

Well, we do have evidence that voter fraud - in the form of preventing people who can vote from voting, through imposition of onerous voting requirements is rampant. Denying the vote to someone who has the right to vote is mathematically just as problematic as granting it to someone who does not have the right.

manigandham 7y ago
True both situations are not good, however right's are still subject to legal requirements when being exercised. For example, the right to bear arms still requires a background check to ensure you can own a weapon. You can also lose your right to vote if you commit a felony but this significant disenfranchisement affecting millions gets no coverage. Why is voting, which is critical to a democracy, considered onerous for requiring identification when driving, employment, banking, business and govt. programs all require it? Isn't that a strange balance?

jakelazaroff 7y ago

How does an ID enable you to measure voter fraud?

manigandham 7y ago
Because you can check and measure who is actually eligible to vote before they vote. Let me ask, why do we have identification for joining a company? Checking employment status? Boarding a flight? Starting a business? Opening a bank account? Getting government assistance? Why would that be necessary but not for voting?
- jakelazaroff 7y ago
  I'm not asking about prevention or why voter ID makes sense in general; I'm asking how it enables measurement of voter fraud. We already have a record of everyone who voted and their address and identifying information such as driver's license number or social security number. What additional information does an ID provide?
  - manigandham 7y ago
    How do you know that information is accurate and matches the individual? For example, for all those situations I described, why is ID required when you can also just provide the information instead? Can you walk into a bank and provide your info without verification? Requiring ID allows us to measure when fraud is occuring by individuals attempting to submit votes and data that is not theirs. Otherwise, there is no "truth" to compare to. I guess we can always call every single person and verify their vote, but then is that not the same thing as an ID check?
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      > Requiring ID allows us to measure when fraud is occuring by individuals attempting to submit votes and data that is not theirs. No, it doesn't; it is neither necessary (as such fraud can be detected by other means) nor sufficient (as even with an ID requirement fraud can be performed without detection) for that purpose.
      - manigandham 7y ago
        Ok, I guess I still haven't seen any clear details on this so can you please answer the questions I asked in this thread? Why are other situations not an issue for requiring ID but voting is? How can we detect fraud by other means, and why can't these other services also do that? Does the fact that nothing is infallible mean it shouldn't be used? If you didn't vote but someone used your information, how do you catch that without some form of verification?