4 ms·

extended stay in the U.S. away from his family and dealing with X months of court bullshit is horrendous and should not happen Curious, how do you think we sho

by loteck 7y ago

extended stay in the U.S. away from his family and dealing with X months of court bullshit is horrendous and should not happen Curious, how do you think we should deal with crimes of this type, if not (at minimum) restraining suspects from leaving the country and having a judge preside over the legal proceedings?

viraptor 7y ago
Have a framework of handing over cases like that and the person back to their country of residence. Unless the case can be handled in less than a week. Otherwise it's basically: Have you got access to lots of money, or are you going to spend years in prison? He was really lucky that he knew people who could offer him place to stay, contact lawyers, help with bail. Majority of people would be completely screwed in that situation.
- bin0 7y ago
  I doubt handing over would always work. England has a decent coirt system, but what about, say, a chinese spy? Maybe you could then elect to hand over an Englishman but detain a chinaman? It works in some cases, but not necessarily as a general framework.
  - XMPPwocky 7y ago
    This sort of thing, at least in theory, is why we have human judges who can consider circumstances and context. A "framework", here, would probably include factors like "are we friendly with the country in question and can we get their law enforcement to monitor the defendant", the nature and severity of the crime, "does the defendant have the resources to 'disappear' in their home country", etc, etc. Besides the first question, it's pretty much already what's considered when deciding whether to grant bail. (Note- I'm not sure the idea of releasing a defendant to another country is a good one, but it's not like the courts wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an agent of a foreign country working in an espionage capacity and Marcus Hutchins.)
  - viraptor 7y ago
    I think your example (international spy) is on a very different level than someone stealing private money. Spies are normally working with the approval of their country, so the prosecution there does not make sense.
  - wiremaus 7y ago
    'Chinaman' is generally considered quite offensive and dated. I'd switch up the noun there.
    - idlewords 7y ago
      The chinaman is not the issue!
    - bin0 7y ago
      How? I used Englishman too. I've never heard it used that way.
      - grzm 7y ago
        - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinaman_(term) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinaman_(term) - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chinaman https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chinaman - https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=chinaman https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=chinaman
- bpye 7y ago
  Yea, this seems quite reasonable. I can't (immediately) see why this wouldn't work between Canada, USA, Australia, NZ, UK, etc.
atsushin 7y ago
That's a great question that I don't have a solid answer to. But one change that I think could be beneficial is at least an expedited judicial process for foreigners like Hutchins, visitors that only intended to stay in the United States for a short period of time before being arrested on suspicion of a crime. Hutchins was fortunate that he had some money and a sort of safety net in the form of donations, a network of people who knew him, etc. For most people without that type of support, I would imagine being prevented from leaving the States for an extended amount of time would be nothing less than devastating.
- AmericanChopper 7y ago
  You’re literally advocating for a two tiered justice system.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 7y ago
    As a consequence of a two-tiered citizen / resident vs not-citizen system.
    - AmericanChopper 7y ago
      You’re gonna have to explain what on earth you could possibly mean by that. Citizens and non-citizens have equal rights under the US justice system. Awaiting trial sucks for anybody, there’s no reason to give any class of people special entitlements.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 7y ago
        Ah yes, "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. " I think that actual equality would have him awaiting trial on bail back home in the UK, not Los Angeles.
        AmericanChopper 7y ago
pjc50 7y ago
In other circumstances countries are very keen to deport people who are suspected of being foreign criminals as soon as possible.

by loteck 7y ago

viraptor 7y ago

Have a framework of handing over cases like that and the person back to their country of residence. Unless the case can be handled in less than a week. Otherwise it's basically: Have you got access to lots of money, or are you going to spend years in prison? He was really lucky that he knew people who could offer him place to stay, contact lawyers, help with bail. Majority of people would be completely screwed in that situation.

bin0 7y ago
I doubt handing over would always work. England has a decent coirt system, but what about, say, a chinese spy? Maybe you could then elect to hand over an Englishman but detain a chinaman? It works in some cases, but not necessarily as a general framework.
- XMPPwocky 7y ago
  This sort of thing, at least in theory, is why we have human judges who can consider circumstances and context. A "framework", here, would probably include factors like "are we friendly with the country in question and can we get their law enforcement to monitor the defendant", the nature and severity of the crime, "does the defendant have the resources to 'disappear' in their home country", etc, etc. Besides the first question, it's pretty much already what's considered when deciding whether to grant bail. (Note- I'm not sure the idea of releasing a defendant to another country is a good one, but it's not like the courts wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an agent of a foreign country working in an espionage capacity and Marcus Hutchins.)
- viraptor 7y ago
  I think your example (international spy) is on a very different level than someone stealing private money. Spies are normally working with the approval of their country, so the prosecution there does not make sense.
- wiremaus 7y ago
  'Chinaman' is generally considered quite offensive and dated. I'd switch up the noun there.
  - idlewords 7y ago
    The chinaman is not the issue!
  - bin0 7y ago
    How? I used Englishman too. I've never heard it used that way.
    - grzm 7y ago
      - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinaman_(term) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinaman_(term) - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chinaman https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chinaman - https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=chinaman https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=chinaman
bpye 7y ago
Yea, this seems quite reasonable. I can't (immediately) see why this wouldn't work between Canada, USA, Australia, NZ, UK, etc.

atsushin 7y ago

That's a great question that I don't have a solid answer to. But one change that I think could be beneficial is at least an expedited judicial process for foreigners like Hutchins, visitors that only intended to stay in the United States for a short period of time before being arrested on suspicion of a crime. Hutchins was fortunate that he had some money and a sort of safety net in the form of donations, a network of people who knew him, etc. For most people without that type of support, I would imagine being prevented from leaving the States for an extended amount of time would be nothing less than devastating.

AmericanChopper 7y ago
You’re literally advocating for a two tiered justice system.
- SideburnsOfDoom 7y ago
  As a consequence of a two-tiered citizen / resident vs not-citizen system.
  - AmericanChopper 7y ago
    You’re gonna have to explain what on earth you could possibly mean by that. Citizens and non-citizens have equal rights under the US justice system. Awaiting trial sucks for anybody, there’s no reason to give any class of people special entitlements.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 7y ago
      Ah yes, "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. " I think that actual equality would have him awaiting trial on bail back home in the UK, not Los Angeles.
      - AmericanChopper 7y ago

pjc50 7y ago

In other circumstances countries are very keen to deport people who are suspected of being foreign criminals as soon as possible.