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This is why "lying to investigators" is such a bs charge. It's incredibly easy to do what you think is the right thing but still "lie" because you didn't know/

This is why "lying to investigators" is such a bs charge. It's incredibly easy to do what you think is the right thing but still "lie" because you didn't know/understand all the facts, implications, and details. Always, always, always, get qualified legal/accounting counsel involved. No, your uncle the family law attorney is not qualified.

codesushi42 7y ago
Never, ever talk to the authorities directly. Always hire an attorney. Exercise your fifth amendment rights.
- iso-8859-1 7y ago
  This is so overkill. What if I am just moving and reporting my new address? What if I am 20 years old and never had any income?
  - SilasX 7y ago
    People parrot that line to sound edgy and virtuous, not because they've thought through the implications.
    - codesushi42 7y ago
      The implication is that you avoid self implication. So you're telling me, if you are ever wrongfully arrested or detained, you are going to be dimwitted enough to talk freely to the cops like they're your good buddies? Because it sounds like you are just that dimwitted and naive.
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    This is a situation where the probability that you unintentionally violate a serious law is high, the probably of that law actually being enforced against you is low, but the consequences if it is are extremely bad. From an expected value perspective the result has a negative sign but a small magnitude, so you avoid it whenever you can but not if doing so comes at a significant cost. But low probability events with large negative consequences are the category of thing that worries people a lot; other instances in this category are things like plane crashes, child abductions, forcible rape and terrorism. It's not strictly rational to be as afraid of them as many people are. However, in this case there's also the consideration that the probability of the law being selectively enforced against you has a lot to do with whether the government doesn't like you, so if you're the sort of person the government (or some plausible future government) might try to stick something to, then the "low probability of enforcement" side of the equation changes and you're in entirely different territory. And we also generally, as a pro-social activity in solidarity with those populations, might want to err on the side of encouraging everyone to behave in a way similar to what those vulnerable populations would have to, to normalize it and make that sort of selective prosecution more difficult. At least as long as we continue to have these disproportionate penalties for what are in practice honest mistakes and everyday behavior.
  - garmaine 7y ago
    Why do you have to report a new address when you move? To whom?
    - NikkiA 7y ago
      The DMV, IRS, DSS, USPS etc etc. Here's a guide: https://www.moving.com/tips/change-address-checklist-who-to-notify-when-you-move/ https://www.moving.com/tips/change-address-checklist-who-to-...
      - garmaine 7y ago
        I interpreted it as HAVE to report, given the context of police asking you for information rather than the other way around, which seemed like a very fascist requirement.
- ergothus 7y ago
  This advice is good, but never addresses the issues of: - cost - impact to work - fear of retaliation (Oh, that's illegal? Show me how that will be dealt with in ways that don't negatively impact my job/family/bank account)
Diederich 7y ago
I like to post this video a couple times a year, because it's so relevant and on point. It's also quite entertaining. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE
- louthy 7y ago
  Yes, it’s an absolute classic video. Even as a non-US resident, I find it fascinating. His delivery is quite exceptional too
sjy 7y ago
Lies have to be knowing and wilful [1]. It shouldn't be easy to knowingly and wilfully lie about something when you don't understand all the facts, implications and details. Did you have a example in mind of someone who had been wrongfully convicted of this offence due to an innocent mistake? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_false_statements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_false_statements
- caseysoftware 7y ago
  Many, many situations of "lying to investigators" has been claimed to be an innocent mistake. No telling how many really were as it's 100% a judgement call of the investigators. Until you've sat across from a pair of investigators, it's hard to guess how you'll respond to relatively simple questions. I've run mock interview sessions for these and it's incredibly easy to trip someone up once you get them angry or get them agree to something you've purposely misstated.
  - sjy 7y ago
    It's not a judgment call of the investigators, it's a crime that you can plead not guilty to. I think the burden is on you to provide an example of someone who was actually convicted of this crime despite not having "knowingly and wilfully" lied.
    - caseysoftware 7y ago
      Investigators - at least with the FBI, where I am familiar - don't record and are often discouraged from recording interviews. They take notes in the moment or summarize based on their memory some time after. Therefore what you said and how you meant it have gone through at least one interpretation before it makes it into any official record. And the interviewer is often not going to be the lead investigator on the case, adding another interpretation. And that's assuming everyone is doing their best to give a complete and accurate statement+summary minimizing their own biases. When it comes down to "knowingly and willfully" it is often a judgement call. This is well-established legal understanding. Please read up on 302s: https://steemit.com/informationwar/@stevescoins/what-is-an-fbi-302-form-and-what-part-have-they-played-in-doj-fbi-corruption https://steemit.com/informationwar/@stevescoins/what-is-an-f...

codesushi42 7y ago

Never, ever talk to the authorities directly. Always hire an attorney. Exercise your fifth amendment rights.

iso-8859-1 7y ago
This is so overkill. What if I am just moving and reporting my new address? What if I am 20 years old and never had any income?
- SilasX 7y ago
  People parrot that line to sound edgy and virtuous, not because they've thought through the implications.
  - codesushi42 7y ago
    The implication is that you avoid self implication. So you're telling me, if you are ever wrongfully arrested or detained, you are going to be dimwitted enough to talk freely to the cops like they're your good buddies? Because it sounds like you are just that dimwitted and naive.
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  This is a situation where the probability that you unintentionally violate a serious law is high, the probably of that law actually being enforced against you is low, but the consequences if it is are extremely bad. From an expected value perspective the result has a negative sign but a small magnitude, so you avoid it whenever you can but not if doing so comes at a significant cost. But low probability events with large negative consequences are the category of thing that worries people a lot; other instances in this category are things like plane crashes, child abductions, forcible rape and terrorism. It's not strictly rational to be as afraid of them as many people are. However, in this case there's also the consideration that the probability of the law being selectively enforced against you has a lot to do with whether the government doesn't like you, so if you're the sort of person the government (or some plausible future government) might try to stick something to, then the "low probability of enforcement" side of the equation changes and you're in entirely different territory. And we also generally, as a pro-social activity in solidarity with those populations, might want to err on the side of encouraging everyone to behave in a way similar to what those vulnerable populations would have to, to normalize it and make that sort of selective prosecution more difficult. At least as long as we continue to have these disproportionate penalties for what are in practice honest mistakes and everyday behavior.
- garmaine 7y ago
  Why do you have to report a new address when you move? To whom?
  - NikkiA 7y ago
    The DMV, IRS, DSS, USPS etc etc. Here's a guide: https://www.moving.com/tips/change-address-checklist-who-to-notify-when-you-move/ https://www.moving.com/tips/change-address-checklist-who-to-...
    - garmaine 7y ago
      I interpreted it as HAVE to report, given the context of police asking you for information rather than the other way around, which seemed like a very fascist requirement.
ergothus 7y ago
This advice is good, but never addresses the issues of: - cost - impact to work - fear of retaliation (Oh, that's illegal? Show me how that will be dealt with in ways that don't negatively impact my job/family/bank account)

Diederich 7y ago

I like to post this video a couple times a year, because it's so relevant and on point. It's also quite entertaining. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

louthy 7y ago
Yes, it’s an absolute classic video. Even as a non-US resident, I find it fascinating. His delivery is quite exceptional too

sjy 7y ago

Lies have to be knowing and wilful [1]. It shouldn't be easy to knowingly and wilfully lie about something when you don't understand all the facts, implications and details. Did you have a example in mind of someone who had been wrongfully convicted of this offence due to an innocent mistake? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_false_statements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_false_statements

caseysoftware 7y ago
Many, many situations of "lying to investigators" has been claimed to be an innocent mistake. No telling how many really were as it's 100% a judgement call of the investigators. Until you've sat across from a pair of investigators, it's hard to guess how you'll respond to relatively simple questions. I've run mock interview sessions for these and it's incredibly easy to trip someone up once you get them angry or get them agree to something you've purposely misstated.
- sjy 7y ago
  It's not a judgment call of the investigators, it's a crime that you can plead not guilty to. I think the burden is on you to provide an example of someone who was actually convicted of this crime despite not having "knowingly and wilfully" lied.
  - caseysoftware 7y ago
    Investigators - at least with the FBI, where I am familiar - don't record and are often discouraged from recording interviews. They take notes in the moment or summarize based on their memory some time after. Therefore what you said and how you meant it have gone through at least one interpretation before it makes it into any official record. And the interviewer is often not going to be the lead investigator on the case, adding another interpretation. And that's assuming everyone is doing their best to give a complete and accurate statement+summary minimizing their own biases. When it comes down to "knowingly and willfully" it is often a judgement call. This is well-established legal understanding. Please read up on 302s: https://steemit.com/informationwar/@stevescoins/what-is-an-fbi-302-form-and-what-part-have-they-played-in-doj-fbi-corruption https://steemit.com/informationwar/@stevescoins/what-is-an-f...