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I said specifically "a claim of factually superior rank". Just an opinion stated as fact is not the same thing. E.g. I looked at all the comments for the highes

by mrob 7y ago

I said specifically "a claim of factually superior rank". Just an opinion stated as fact is not the same thing. E.g. I looked at all the comments for the highest scoring article currently on the front page ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20531987 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20531987 ). I found opinions stated as fact, but none that simultaneously deprecated anything else.

rowanG077 7y ago
An opinion that deprecates something else is just a subset of all opinions. It doesn't deserve special care.
- mrob 7y ago
  All specific opinions are subsets of all opinions. Deprecating something is not a challenge if it is presented as subjective. It is the combination of deprecation and statement as fact (e.g. "without a doubt") that is confrontational. And confrontational opinions are perfectly acceptable in the correct context. My claim is that a context where any disagreement breaks social conventions is the wrong context.
rowanG077 7y ago
> All specific opinions are subsets of all opinions. Yes and? why repeat something obvious. > Deprecating something is not a challenge if it is presented as subjective. It is the combination of deprecation and statement as fact (e.g. "without a doubt") that is confrontational. And confrontational opinions are perfectly acceptable in the correct context. My claim is that a context where any disagreement breaks social conventions is the wrong context. An opinion itself can never be confrontational. It's a person that takes it as a confrontation. Just like offense is taken not given.
- mrob 7y ago
  >Yes and? why repeat something obvious. To illustrate that your response was a tautology, and therefore it did not contribute to your argument. >An opinion itself can never be confrontational. But an expression of an opinion can be. If I say "I am 100% certain that [thing I like] is better than [thing you like]", that is a challenge to you. And it is not a fair argument if I say it in a context where you can't reply without punishment.
  - rowanG077 7y ago
    > But an expression of an opinion can be. If I say "I am 100% certain that [thing I like] is better than [thing you like]", that is a challenge to you. That's not a challenge. It's childish to feel challenged when someone else has a differing opinion. I can't even fathom going through life seeing everything somebody else likes as a thread to something I like.
    - mrob 7y ago
      >It's childish to feel challenged when someone else has a differing opinion. I am not objecting to differing opinions, or confrontation. I am objecting to the combination of three specific things: * An opinion expressed as fact * which deprecates something * under unusual circumstances which prevent supporters of the thing being deprecated from responding as they would otherwise be able to This is clearly violating the rules of fair argument. It is very far from "everything", and I don't recall ever seeing it on HN before.
      - rowanG077 7y ago
        There is no argument. That's what you are missing. Someone expressing his opinion is not equal to starting an argument, in any context. Starting the argument is the person who actually starts the argumentation process.
        mrob 7y ago
        >Someone expressing his opinion is not equal to starting an argument, in any context. Expressing an opinion as though it is fact, in such a way as to deprecate something or someone, is an attempt to start an argument, whether intentional or not. Anybody associated with the thing being deprecated risks loss of social status, and it is natural human instinct to want to avoid that. If I say "I'm right and you're wrong", that is an attempt to start an argument. In most contexts it would be entirely reasonable for you to reply disputing it, and nobody would claim your were "starting an argument" by doing so. The one who makes the deprecating claim is the one who starts the argument, not the one who replies. I do not object to argument per se. Arguments can be a valuable part of discussion. But if I say "I'm right and you're wrong" in a context where any attempt you make to defend yourself would be downvoted no matter whether it was correct or not, then that is the wrong context to make the claim. There is no value to an argument under such conditions.

by mrob 7y ago

rowanG077 7y ago

An opinion that deprecates something else is just a subset of all opinions. It doesn't deserve special care.

mrob 7y ago
All specific opinions are subsets of all opinions. Deprecating something is not a challenge if it is presented as subjective. It is the combination of deprecation and statement as fact (e.g. "without a doubt") that is confrontational. And confrontational opinions are perfectly acceptable in the correct context. My claim is that a context where any disagreement breaks social conventions is the wrong context.

rowanG077 7y ago

> All specific opinions are subsets of all opinions. Yes and? why repeat something obvious. > Deprecating something is not a challenge if it is presented as subjective. It is the combination of deprecation and statement as fact (e.g. "without a doubt") that is confrontational. And confrontational opinions are perfectly acceptable in the correct context. My claim is that a context where any disagreement breaks social conventions is the wrong context. An opinion itself can never be confrontational. It's a person that takes it as a confrontation. Just like offense is taken not given.

mrob 7y ago
>Yes and? why repeat something obvious. To illustrate that your response was a tautology, and therefore it did not contribute to your argument. >An opinion itself can never be confrontational. But an expression of an opinion can be. If I say "I am 100% certain that [thing I like] is better than [thing you like]", that is a challenge to you. And it is not a fair argument if I say it in a context where you can't reply without punishment.
- rowanG077 7y ago
  > But an expression of an opinion can be. If I say "I am 100% certain that [thing I like] is better than [thing you like]", that is a challenge to you. That's not a challenge. It's childish to feel challenged when someone else has a differing opinion. I can't even fathom going through life seeing everything somebody else likes as a thread to something I like.
  - mrob 7y ago
    >It's childish to feel challenged when someone else has a differing opinion. I am not objecting to differing opinions, or confrontation. I am objecting to the combination of three specific things: * An opinion expressed as fact * which deprecates something * under unusual circumstances which prevent supporters of the thing being deprecated from responding as they would otherwise be able to This is clearly violating the rules of fair argument. It is very far from "everything", and I don't recall ever seeing it on HN before.
    - rowanG077 7y ago
      There is no argument. That's what you are missing. Someone expressing his opinion is not equal to starting an argument, in any context. Starting the argument is the person who actually starts the argumentation process.
      - mrob 7y ago
        >Someone expressing his opinion is not equal to starting an argument, in any context. Expressing an opinion as though it is fact, in such a way as to deprecate something or someone, is an attempt to start an argument, whether intentional or not. Anybody associated with the thing being deprecated risks loss of social status, and it is natural human instinct to want to avoid that. If I say "I'm right and you're wrong", that is an attempt to start an argument. In most contexts it would be entirely reasonable for you to reply disputing it, and nobody would claim your were "starting an argument" by doing so. The one who makes the deprecating claim is the one who starts the argument, not the one who replies. I do not object to argument per se. Arguments can be a valuable part of discussion. But if I say "I'm right and you're wrong" in a context where any attempt you make to defend yourself would be downvoted no matter whether it was correct or not, then that is the wrong context to make the claim. There is no value to an argument under such conditions.