5 ms·

Other countries that are not in the Schengen area do have access to the SIS. Their access rights were given by them signing various agreements (the status is qu

by miahi 7y ago

Other countries that are not in the Schengen area do have access to the SIS. Their access rights were given by them signing various agreements (the status is quite complex, you should check the SA status[1] for more details). Yes, the title should be millions. Of mostly missing or wanted persons or lost passport and national IDs. Not sure how you would propose to ensure the security of a zone without a massive database of people that are not desired in that zone or documents that should not be used because they are reported as lost by their owners. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area

dillonmckay 7y ago
Do you think they have both a blacklist and a whitelist?
- miahi 7y ago
  The SIS database is 100% blacklist - people who should be stopped at the border, arrested, reported or followed, objects that should be seized (like stolen cars), objects that prompt for more inquiries (like stolen/lost passports). Source: worked on SIS
  - eecc 7y ago
    And on what basis is a person added to this database? I'm referring to the "reported and followed". Activists perhaps? You know, those perfectly legitimate parties that rapidly tend to get labelled "terrorists" because reasons.
    - zaat 7y ago
      A dismissive cynical attitude helps no one. Sure, some perhaps many, people are corrupt and exercise power given to them for wrong ends. Nevertheless, at large, people want law enforcement, they want stolen goods returned to them, they want criminals to be stopped. You have better suggestion to maintain law and order?
      - southerntofu 7y ago
        > Sure, some perhaps many, people are corrupt and exercise power given to them for wrong ends. That's in the nature of power dynamics. Not abusing power is the exception to the rule. > You have better suggestion to maintain law and order? I think having the rules decided upon and enforced by the people (not some centralized institution that's disconnected from the social fabric) would help a lot. What would help even more is to address the roots of criminality. There are for example many studies in the past two centuries showing that social inequalities necessarily lead to theft and violence (whether institutionalized or de facto), and that reducing unemployment (not with shitty uberized jobs) is an effective way to lower crime rates, if that is your objective. Other root causes include the repression itself of crime: prisons and psychiatric hospitals are themselves fostering very violent human interactions. Emma Goldman had a very good piece back in 1911 on prison as part of the problem: http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/aando/prisons.html http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/aando/...
        zaat 7y ago
        Sure, our institutions can and should be improved. And I believe that by and large, we are moving forward. But it is not the case that we are currently doing it wrong and we can do it somehow right. We can only aim to do it better. The state of society changes and get reevaluated. Still, the way I see it, in any point in history or in the future, crime will exist and, if we want law and order maintained, we will have to maintain a database of stolen goods and of criminals. Do you see any alternative?
        jfk13 7y ago
        > I think having the rules decided upon and enforced by the people (not some centralized institution that's disconnected from the social fabric) would help a lot. And how exactly are "the people" going to decide upon and enforce the rules? Just gathering all the people together to talk until they come to consensus is hardly scalable to the size of a small town, let alone a country or continent. Hence representative democracy, institutions, governments, police forces, court systems.... all that stuff. It may be far from perfect, but it's not clear anyone has come up with a better mechanism.
    - microcolonel 7y ago
      While given the general lack of real civil liberties (not just civil privileges, granted conditionally by the state) in the region, I wouldn't be surprised if some of these are illegitimate; I suspect the vast majority of them are for legitimate (murder, forcible rape, evasion of arrest, larceny, movement of materiel for terrorists and other criminals, etc.) purposes.

by miahi 7y ago

dillonmckay 7y ago

Do you think they have both a blacklist and a whitelist?

miahi 7y ago
The SIS database is 100% blacklist - people who should be stopped at the border, arrested, reported or followed, objects that should be seized (like stolen cars), objects that prompt for more inquiries (like stolen/lost passports). Source: worked on SIS
- eecc 7y ago
  And on what basis is a person added to this database? I'm referring to the "reported and followed". Activists perhaps? You know, those perfectly legitimate parties that rapidly tend to get labelled "terrorists" because reasons.
  - zaat 7y ago
    A dismissive cynical attitude helps no one. Sure, some perhaps many, people are corrupt and exercise power given to them for wrong ends. Nevertheless, at large, people want law enforcement, they want stolen goods returned to them, they want criminals to be stopped. You have better suggestion to maintain law and order?
    - southerntofu 7y ago
      > Sure, some perhaps many, people are corrupt and exercise power given to them for wrong ends. That's in the nature of power dynamics. Not abusing power is the exception to the rule. > You have better suggestion to maintain law and order? I think having the rules decided upon and enforced by the people (not some centralized institution that's disconnected from the social fabric) would help a lot. What would help even more is to address the roots of criminality. There are for example many studies in the past two centuries showing that social inequalities necessarily lead to theft and violence (whether institutionalized or de facto), and that reducing unemployment (not with shitty uberized jobs) is an effective way to lower crime rates, if that is your objective. Other root causes include the repression itself of crime: prisons and psychiatric hospitals are themselves fostering very violent human interactions. Emma Goldman had a very good piece back in 1911 on prison as part of the problem: http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/aando/prisons.html http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/aando/...
      - zaat 7y ago
        Sure, our institutions can and should be improved. And I believe that by and large, we are moving forward. But it is not the case that we are currently doing it wrong and we can do it somehow right. We can only aim to do it better. The state of society changes and get reevaluated. Still, the way I see it, in any point in history or in the future, crime will exist and, if we want law and order maintained, we will have to maintain a database of stolen goods and of criminals. Do you see any alternative?
      - jfk13 7y ago
        > I think having the rules decided upon and enforced by the people (not some centralized institution that's disconnected from the social fabric) would help a lot. And how exactly are "the people" going to decide upon and enforce the rules? Just gathering all the people together to talk until they come to consensus is hardly scalable to the size of a small town, let alone a country or continent. Hence representative democracy, institutions, governments, police forces, court systems.... all that stuff. It may be far from perfect, but it's not clear anyone has come up with a better mechanism.
  - microcolonel 7y ago
    While given the general lack of real civil liberties (not just civil privileges, granted conditionally by the state) in the region, I wouldn't be surprised if some of these are illegitimate; I suspect the vast majority of them are for legitimate (murder, forcible rape, evasion of arrest, larceny, movement of materiel for terrorists and other criminals, etc.) purposes.