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But the vote was poorly informed and actively manipulated. Many people voted leave as a protest against the state of the country, not the EU, and have said so.

by mdpye 7y ago

But the vote was poorly informed and actively manipulated. Many people voted leave as a protest against the state of the country, not the EU, and have said so. And many of the most persuasive statements made by the leave campaign were shown to be deliberate falsehoods. I respect the desires of those who genuinely wish to leave the EU, but the referendum result was not anything close to a true measurement of that, and any measure since has been grossly polluted by the ensuing acrimony. The referendum was about many things, and most of them weren't our membership of the EU.

tomxor 7y ago
> Many people voted leave as a protest against the state of the country, not the EU, and have said so. This is true in my experience, almost all arguments I have ever heard in person are of this form... I don't know where this came from but suspect the concept of "Leave == Change" was likely seeded on social media. > The referendum was about many things, and most of them weren't our membership of the EU. Yes, this is the source of the problem, even though manipulation is more of a problem than it used to be, this vote is particularly vulnerable to it because it's so poorly defined - it's basically impossible to have a sane and comprehensive debate about the topic so instead people naturally cling onto something that fits their values, and it's extremely easy to just fabricate those things in this case.
_Understated_ 7y ago
Perhaps I live in a bubble but to me it was pretty clear: In or out. As for the result not reflecting the people that's nonsense: Everyone with the ability to vote and the right to vote could and should have voted. If they didn't then tough. If people were swayed by politicians promising one thing or another and all the nonsense that flowed through social media then that's on them. I don't get this attitude that people have of "oh, it's not fair, we were lied to". We are talking about policicians here: they are only going to say whatever makes them popular and gets/keeps them in power.
- Lio 7y ago
  Except that in or out isn't clear because it doesn't cover the details of what out means. I'm assuming you wouldn't expect the Brexiteers to stop campaigning if they had lost the vote? They'd just carry on trying to smash things up until they got their way. There were supposed to be rules follow with regard to funding and truthfulness on the part of the Leave campaign and it's now clear that those rules were broken. [1] So in short, those of us in the UK that think the UK would be better off as a member of the EU are still going to fight for that because we care about doing what we think is best for the country. [1] https://news.sky.com/story/vote-leave-broke-campaign-spending-rules-says-electoral-commission-11425636 https://news.sky.com/story/vote-leave-broke-campaign-spendin...
opportune 7y ago
I agree with you but that doesn't invalidate the initial vote. The only marginally democratically legitimate way to do a revote would be for the UK to ask to voters to choose between actually negotiated and realistic terms (or maybe multiple, e.g. hard brexit + any deal they can strike with the EU if ever) and staying.

by mdpye 7y ago

tomxor 7y ago

> Many people voted leave as a protest against the state of the country, not the EU, and have said so. This is true in my experience, almost all arguments I have ever heard in person are of this form... I don't know where this came from but suspect the concept of "Leave == Change" was likely seeded on social media. > The referendum was about many things, and most of them weren't our membership of the EU. Yes, this is the source of the problem, even though manipulation is more of a problem than it used to be, this vote is particularly vulnerable to it because it's so poorly defined - it's basically impossible to have a sane and comprehensive debate about the topic so instead people naturally cling onto something that fits their values, and it's extremely easy to just fabricate those things in this case.

_Understated_ 7y ago

Perhaps I live in a bubble but to me it was pretty clear: In or out. As for the result not reflecting the people that's nonsense: Everyone with the ability to vote and the right to vote could and should have voted. If they didn't then tough. If people were swayed by politicians promising one thing or another and all the nonsense that flowed through social media then that's on them. I don't get this attitude that people have of "oh, it's not fair, we were lied to". We are talking about policicians here: they are only going to say whatever makes them popular and gets/keeps them in power.

Lio 7y ago
Except that in or out isn't clear because it doesn't cover the details of what out means. I'm assuming you wouldn't expect the Brexiteers to stop campaigning if they had lost the vote? They'd just carry on trying to smash things up until they got their way. There were supposed to be rules follow with regard to funding and truthfulness on the part of the Leave campaign and it's now clear that those rules were broken. [1] So in short, those of us in the UK that think the UK would be better off as a member of the EU are still going to fight for that because we care about doing what we think is best for the country. [1] https://news.sky.com/story/vote-leave-broke-campaign-spending-rules-says-electoral-commission-11425636 https://news.sky.com/story/vote-leave-broke-campaign-spendin...

opportune 7y ago

I agree with you but that doesn't invalidate the initial vote. The only marginally democratically legitimate way to do a revote would be for the UK to ask to voters to choose between actually negotiated and realistic terms (or maybe multiple, e.g. hard brexit + any deal they can strike with the EU if ever) and staying.