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Actually no deal is what the government leaflet that they sent EVERYBODY who voted outlined. They said leaving the EU meant leaving the customs union and singl

by Zenst 7y ago

Actually no deal is what the government leaflet that they sent EVERYBODY who voted outlined. They said leaving the EU meant leaving the customs union and single market - that was pretty clear, that was what people understood from this and that is how they voted. Alas many for whom the vote did not go as intended, seem to feel that everybody else did not understand what they voted for. For me - staying in a customs union or single market would entail as best solution - staying in the EU. Leaving those meant leaving the EU. Even mader is that the EU laws and article 50 state that any member state must leave without a deal as no deal can be negotiated until....they have left. So this whole aspect of we can not leave without a deal, goes against EU law in article 50. So really is very crazy how those aspects get overlooked and allowed to drag on when it was pretty well clear cut for so many and still is today.

jacquesm 7y ago
I really wonder how many people will own up to their short-sighted visions and online evidence of those when the first bullets are fired in a shooting war in Western Europe in one of our possible futures. There is a very good chance that Brexit will be pointed at by future historians as the vote that changed history irrevocably.
- IG_Semmelweiss 7y ago
  You may be roght but i think you have causal relationships reversed. World war 2 was set in motion the moment the WW1 peace agreement was codified. Who is to say that WW3 was not started the moment an intrepid set of bureaucrats set about merging a diverse range of populations that have nothing in common whatsoever? Remember Yugoslavia? Do you know what they did? EU is yugoslavia 2.0
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
benj111 7y ago
"They said leaving the EU meant leaving the customs union and single market" Is this the flyer? https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... Because it doesn't say what you said it does. Anyway that's what Teresa May's deal was offering. The one rejected by the Brexiteers amongst others.
CaptainZapp 7y ago
Even mader is that the EU laws and article 50 state that any member state must leave without a deal as no deal can be negotiated until....they have left. Actually a transition period was proposed (and agreed upon in the current deal) for exactly that. The problem, of course, is that if the UK breaks out without a deal there will be no transition period.
subsubsub 7y ago
> "They said leaving the EU meant leaving the customs union and single market" Not sure about leaflets (who reads these?), but the main point that people understood leave meant 'leave the customs union and single market' is correct. The idea that people didn't understand this is a useful delusion for those who want to undo the result. Source: Me, I was there. But also a quick google search: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fDn0MvcHQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fDn0MvcHQ4
- benj111 7y ago
  You're misremembering. Most leading Brexiteers expected some kind of access to the single market. Farage himself talked about a Norway type arrangement immediately post referendum at least. https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/open-britain-video-single-market-nigel-farage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmluZy5jb20vc2VhcmNoP3E9ZmFyYWdlJTIwbm9yd2F5JTIwcXVvdGUmZm9ybT1NQjEwNzgmbWt0PWVuLUdCJnNldGxhbmc9ZW4tR0I&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAABrBQeqO-bw3RGuib2QOF5MZtx8q4aB6BCHKlGXaCKe5hSQXhXNr5cB2_V1cwz-siPDlrunfIPATL7_KWfO3VpwlgeSjnSU619ewvV8TSbrercZKUlhWAV29Y5zyn4vaVJ6JutbrfD_AQ7DMZ8dntwlQPpQLywW0150yP3zsqgyI&guccounter=2 https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/open-britain-video-sing... https://fullfact.org/europe/what-was-promised-about-customs-union-referendum/ https://fullfact.org/europe/what-was-promised-about-customs-... I've already linked to the official leaflet, I find it telling that you don't/didn't feel the need to read it.
  - subsubsub 7y ago
    Thanks for taking the time to respond. Every person who voted in the referendum felt the need not to read the official leaflet. My comment was about what a person who voted understood by the time they got to the ballot box. I didn't make that clear enough and the part of the previous comment I quoted probably helped in this misunderstanding, I apologise. "What people understood" encompasses the messages that they have received from politicians on both sides of the debate. The video I linked to shows many politicians from both remain and leave making the point explicit. I would argue that many, many more people saw these prime time messages than read the official leaflet.

by Zenst 7y ago

jacquesm 7y ago

I really wonder how many people will own up to their short-sighted visions and online evidence of those when the first bullets are fired in a shooting war in Western Europe in one of our possible futures. There is a very good chance that Brexit will be pointed at by future historians as the vote that changed history irrevocably.

IG_Semmelweiss 7y ago
You may be roght but i think you have causal relationships reversed. World war 2 was set in motion the moment the WW1 peace agreement was codified. Who is to say that WW3 was not started the moment an intrepid set of bureaucrats set about merging a diverse range of populations that have nothing in common whatsoever? Remember Yugoslavia? Do you know what they did? EU is yugoslavia 2.0
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

benj111 7y ago

"They said leaving the EU meant leaving the customs union and single market" Is this the flyer? https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... Because it doesn't say what you said it does. Anyway that's what Teresa May's deal was offering. The one rejected by the Brexiteers amongst others.

CaptainZapp 7y ago

Even mader is that the EU laws and article 50 state that any member state must leave without a deal as no deal can be negotiated until....they have left. Actually a transition period was proposed (and agreed upon in the current deal) for exactly that. The problem, of course, is that if the UK breaks out without a deal there will be no transition period.

subsubsub 7y ago

> "They said leaving the EU meant leaving the customs union and single market" Not sure about leaflets (who reads these?), but the main point that people understood leave meant 'leave the customs union and single market' is correct. The idea that people didn't understand this is a useful delusion for those who want to undo the result. Source: Me, I was there. But also a quick google search: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fDn0MvcHQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fDn0MvcHQ4

benj111 7y ago
You're misremembering. Most leading Brexiteers expected some kind of access to the single market. Farage himself talked about a Norway type arrangement immediately post referendum at least. https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/open-britain-video-single-market-nigel-farage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmluZy5jb20vc2VhcmNoP3E9ZmFyYWdlJTIwbm9yd2F5JTIwcXVvdGUmZm9ybT1NQjEwNzgmbWt0PWVuLUdCJnNldGxhbmc9ZW4tR0I&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAABrBQeqO-bw3RGuib2QOF5MZtx8q4aB6BCHKlGXaCKe5hSQXhXNr5cB2_V1cwz-siPDlrunfIPATL7_KWfO3VpwlgeSjnSU619ewvV8TSbrercZKUlhWAV29Y5zyn4vaVJ6JutbrfD_AQ7DMZ8dntwlQPpQLywW0150yP3zsqgyI&guccounter=2 https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/open-britain-video-sing... https://fullfact.org/europe/what-was-promised-about-customs-union-referendum/ https://fullfact.org/europe/what-was-promised-about-customs-... I've already linked to the official leaflet, I find it telling that you don't/didn't feel the need to read it.
- subsubsub 7y ago
  Thanks for taking the time to respond. Every person who voted in the referendum felt the need not to read the official leaflet. My comment was about what a person who voted understood by the time they got to the ballot box. I didn't make that clear enough and the part of the previous comment I quoted probably helped in this misunderstanding, I apologise. "What people understood" encompasses the messages that they have received from politicians on both sides of the debate. The video I linked to shows many politicians from both remain and leave making the point explicit. I would argue that many, many more people saw these prime time messages than read the official leaflet.