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I will agree the UK has never really embraced the whole EU project as it has become. I also agree that in many votes, the UK has been the stumbling block and w

by Zenst 7y ago

I will agree the UK has never really embraced the whole EU project as it has become. I also agree that in many votes, the UK has been the stumbling block and with that did anybody in the UK and those wanting to keep the UK in the EU ever asked themselves - what is best for the EU? I did and that is why I voted leave myself - better for the EU and the UK. That was my reason for voting as I did. Equally, many area's in the EU that need fixing and by the UK leaving, those would stick out and get fixed. Case in point, the UK initially asked for reform within the EU and got palmed off with some concessions and we had a vote on the back of that. Now after the vote - Tusk et all have said, the EU needs reform and Macron is driving for that reform. Ironically that reform won't happen or even start to be discussed, until the UK leaves. I often get people who go on about the EU and how they are pro-EU and demanding a second vote (probably a third....until they get the result they want...) but if you ask them - what has the UK done for the EU? They stumble. But as always - comedy foretold the whole story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE

toyg 7y ago
This is a bit uncharitable. The UK helped the EU be more dynamic than it otherwise might have been, avoiding a certain French big-state mindset that could have seen eurobureaucracy really run riot on national laws. It definitely attracted capital investments from across the globe into the EU market, and it relieved some of the unemployment pressure in poorer countries thanks to a very dynamic labor market. Obviously there have been sore points (complete opposition to real federalism, coordinated defence, and fighting dirty money / tax evasion), but overall both the UK and EU members have benefited from working together. Brexit is a lose-lose scenario that we will all have to endure rather than enjoy, whichever side of the fence we sit on.
- MrBuddyCasino 7y ago
  > avoiding a certain French big-state mindset that could have seen eurobureaucracy really run riot on national laws Germany is not really onboard with that either, but I agree a more extreme counter-weight would have been helpful.
benj111 7y ago
So how should the UK leave the EU? As the vote wasn't held on the basis of leaving without a deal, and you don't want a 2nd vote to ask an actionable question.
- Zenst 7y ago
  Actually no deal is what the government leaflet that they sent EVERYBODY who voted outlined. They said leaving the EU meant leaving the customs union and single market - that was pretty clear, that was what people understood from this and that is how they voted. Alas many for whom the vote did not go as intended, seem to feel that everybody else did not understand what they voted for. For me - staying in a customs union or single market would entail as best solution - staying in the EU. Leaving those meant leaving the EU. Even mader is that the EU laws and article 50 state that any member state must leave without a deal as no deal can be negotiated until....they have left. So this whole aspect of we can not leave without a deal, goes against EU law in article 50. So really is very crazy how those aspects get overlooked and allowed to drag on when it was pretty well clear cut for so many and still is today.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    I really wonder how many people will own up to their short-sighted visions and online evidence of those when the first bullets are fired in a shooting war in Western Europe in one of our possible futures. There is a very good chance that Brexit will be pointed at by future historians as the vote that changed history irrevocably.
    - IG_Semmelweiss 7y ago
      You may be roght but i think you have causal relationships reversed. World war 2 was set in motion the moment the WW1 peace agreement was codified. Who is to say that WW3 was not started the moment an intrepid set of bureaucrats set about merging a diverse range of populations that have nothing in common whatsoever? Remember Yugoslavia? Do you know what they did? EU is yugoslavia 2.0
    - deleted 7y ago
kitd 7y ago
> what has the UK done for the EU? You do know that the driving force behind the Single Market was Margaret Thatcher? Much of its legislation was set up initially to benefit the UK, and still does. Quite apart from that, there are plenty of individual pieces of legislation that originate in the UK. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/07/09/british-influence-in-brussels-had-been-far-greater-than-recognised/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/07/09/british-influence-... I am very happy to agree that the UK has never fully felt at home in the EU, but it is definitely wrong to say that our membership was never in the EU's best interest.

by Zenst 7y ago

toyg 7y ago

This is a bit uncharitable. The UK helped the EU be more dynamic than it otherwise might have been, avoiding a certain French big-state mindset that could have seen eurobureaucracy really run riot on national laws. It definitely attracted capital investments from across the globe into the EU market, and it relieved some of the unemployment pressure in poorer countries thanks to a very dynamic labor market. Obviously there have been sore points (complete opposition to real federalism, coordinated defence, and fighting dirty money / tax evasion), but overall both the UK and EU members have benefited from working together. Brexit is a lose-lose scenario that we will all have to endure rather than enjoy, whichever side of the fence we sit on.

MrBuddyCasino 7y ago
> avoiding a certain French big-state mindset that could have seen eurobureaucracy really run riot on national laws Germany is not really onboard with that either, but I agree a more extreme counter-weight would have been helpful.

benj111 7y ago

So how should the UK leave the EU? As the vote wasn't held on the basis of leaving without a deal, and you don't want a 2nd vote to ask an actionable question.

Zenst 7y ago
Actually no deal is what the government leaflet that they sent EVERYBODY who voted outlined. They said leaving the EU meant leaving the customs union and single market - that was pretty clear, that was what people understood from this and that is how they voted. Alas many for whom the vote did not go as intended, seem to feel that everybody else did not understand what they voted for. For me - staying in a customs union or single market would entail as best solution - staying in the EU. Leaving those meant leaving the EU. Even mader is that the EU laws and article 50 state that any member state must leave without a deal as no deal can be negotiated until....they have left. So this whole aspect of we can not leave without a deal, goes against EU law in article 50. So really is very crazy how those aspects get overlooked and allowed to drag on when it was pretty well clear cut for so many and still is today.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  I really wonder how many people will own up to their short-sighted visions and online evidence of those when the first bullets are fired in a shooting war in Western Europe in one of our possible futures. There is a very good chance that Brexit will be pointed at by future historians as the vote that changed history irrevocably.
  - IG_Semmelweiss 7y ago
    You may be roght but i think you have causal relationships reversed. World war 2 was set in motion the moment the WW1 peace agreement was codified. Who is to say that WW3 was not started the moment an intrepid set of bureaucrats set about merging a diverse range of populations that have nothing in common whatsoever? Remember Yugoslavia? Do you know what they did? EU is yugoslavia 2.0
  - deleted 7y ago

kitd 7y ago

> what has the UK done for the EU? You do know that the driving force behind the Single Market was Margaret Thatcher? Much of its legislation was set up initially to benefit the UK, and still does. Quite apart from that, there are plenty of individual pieces of legislation that originate in the UK. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/07/09/british-influence-in-brussels-had-been-far-greater-than-recognised/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/07/09/british-influence-... I am very happy to agree that the UK has never fully felt at home in the EU, but it is definitely wrong to say that our membership was never in the EU's best interest.