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The title is incorrect. The Schengen Information System does not keep data for "all EU citizens", it only keeps such data for wanted persons, missing/stolen ide

by miahi 7y ago

The title is incorrect. The Schengen Information System does not keep data for "all EU citizens", it only keeps such data for wanted persons, missing/stolen identity documents or objects (like cars, boats and so on). There is no centralized database for EU citizens photos or fingerprints (not even at national level in many countries).

pknight 7y ago
>There is no centralized database for EU citizens photos or fingerprints (not even at national level in many countries). "The database will aggregate the details of more than 350 million people, including their identifying information, such as names, passport number, dates of birth, as well as biometrics like fingerprints and facial scans." https://www.computing.co.uk/ctg/news/3074472/eu-parliament-votes-to-create-biometrics-database-of-350-million-people https://www.computing.co.uk/ctg/news/3074472/eu-parliament-v...
- yaris 7y ago
  The link suggests that this was announced in April this year. Do you think all the necessary DBs have already been connected? I would expect it to happen next year earliest.
  - pknight 7y ago
    I suspect it's nowhere near live yet, but it's relevant to this topic. There will be a massive new database and it's a terribly unlikely that this data will not be leaked or shared at some point.
  - powi88nxjdi 7y ago
    So what if it was announced in April? Do we really believe we ca trust these groups with this data? This is like the Vogons justifying blowing up a planet because the paperwork was filed years ago. It’s not about the details. It’s about trust in institutions and I’m pretty sure we can see we should have none with these official bodies and the corporate buddies they give our work away to
- ptaipale 7y ago
  >"will aggregate" This was an announced intention in April this year. The implementation of this decision probably needs further approvals and ratifications, and even after that, it takes time. The source material does not even exist, and I expect that in some EU countries collecting this data of all citizens will not be possible due to country legislation. Thus this is certainly far from complete, if even started at all. It's safe to say that there is no database of 350 million EU citizens' fingerprints that anyone could copy.
  - dangerface 7y ago
    So we should wait until every one's details are leaked before deciding this is a bad idea because it will inevitably leak? This is like the police refusing to respond to death threats until the person is dead.
    - IanCal 7y ago
      What they seem to be saying is not that the data hasn't leaked, but that it likely does not even exist. If that's true, a headline of "X has been copied" would be wrong if X didn't exist.
      - dangerface 7y ago
        The data does exist, and they are and have been collating it into one super database according to the article pknight posted. So I go back to my argument: > So we should wait until every one's details are leaked before deciding this is a bad idea because it will inevitably leak?
        ptaipale 7y ago
        You claim the data does exist - but where did it come from? There has been no program to forcibly collect fingerprints of all EU citizens. There is some biometric data collected for Schengen passports, but not even close to all people even have a passport. And if you claim my biometric passport fingerprints are in that DB, you are claiming that the police in my country has performed a massive illegal data handover. If you have evidence of that, give it - heads will roll.
throwaway744678 7y ago
Regarding fingerprints, let's not forget that non-police system (eg. biometric passports) only register a subset of flat prints. On French passports, only two fingers are saved, and the prints are 'flat' - not rolled . Those are usable as a verification (is the holder of the document the actual owner?), but would prove very hard to use to identify someone out of a crowd (whose prints are on this gun/knife/glass?).
- tapland 7y ago
  Passports are only handled by the police in some EU-countries, but I guess they use the same fingerprint rules.
rasz 7y ago
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eu-fingerprints/fingerprints-in-european-passports-legal-eu-court-idUKBRE99G0FX20131017 https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eu-fingerprints/fingerprin...
powi88nxjdi 7y ago
Ok so it’s not all EU citizens What’s more interesting to me is in the Tweet: UK made illegals copies of hundreds of millions of people’s data (since you were mostly hung up on that, I qualified it better). Are you seeing the interesting takeaway?
- wuliwong 7y ago
  HN self-polices the titles here pretty well. Correcting inaccurate titles is a regular occurrence on HN. I think it leads to a much better user experience. Wanting an accurate headline on HN does not have to conflate to a person not understanding or disagreeing with the linked content. It can just be a representation of an overall goal of the HN community to keep headlines accurate.
- miahi 7y ago
  Another (small) correction: There aren't hundred of millions persons registered in the SIS. The "hundred of millions" comes from the number of EU citizens. Of course, one person's data leaked is too many, but anyway, that's how it is. Also, most of the person alerts do not have binaries (photos or fingerprints); usually only the persons that have an European Arrest Warrant do have these. I see this as more of a security issue than a privacy issue. The data in the SIS is mostly about law enforcement, meaning that a leak would expose that a person is wanted (some of the person searches are undercover, and the data also covers a person's aliases - so if a "bad" person has access to the data it can react) and also, the SIS data is a "living" organism - using a copy (snapshot) of the data in a law enforcement activity is actually unlawful - if the snapshot is old it means that you cannot find a person that was added yesterday and also that you will find a person that was "cleared" yesterday.
zoobab 7y ago
Is it enough to remove the "all"? I understand not all EU citizens were in the database.
- wuliwong 7y ago
  That would seem fine. Possibly add a reference to the Schengen Information System to be specific?
- miahi 7y ago
  I would say it's more generic than that. Not all the data is for EU citizens, and not all the data has photos and fingerprints. What dangerface quoted from the euobserver[1] seems to be the best approach, maybe make it shorter... As I said in another comment, I would emphasize more on the "classified" than "personal information", but that's only me (I would say Facebook has way more info on "normal" people than what's in the SIS database). There's also the issue of "copied to US", which was not demonstrated. It's really hard to keep all the US companies out of the SIS when you are using an Oracle database. I would put it like this: "UK made illegal copies of classified personal information from the Schengen Information System" [1] https://euobserver.com/justice/145530 https://euobserver.com/justice/145530
bonjurkes 7y ago
It also includes information of 3rd world country citizens'. Like passport info, photos, fingerprints, their visit to Schengen countries. When you apply for visa for Schengen countries, your info will be recorded on SIS. And stored there for 5 years. Note: EU uses the term "3rd world country" term themselves and Im citizen of one of those countries.
- miahi 7y ago
  There is no visa information in the SIS, you are probably referring to a different system (maybe VIS). Yes, when you apply for visa you will probably be _searched_ in the SIS, but this will happen many times in the EU anyway (or even before approaching the EU - likely when boarding a flight to an EU country).
- stordoff 7y ago
  Do you mean "Third country"? I have not come across the EU using "Third world country" officially.
  - cat199 7y ago
    not to mention that eu+us+uk does not equal the so-called '1st world' in it's entirety (see also: canada, japan), and also that there is some notion of a '2nd world' as well.
    - ricudis 7y ago
      The confusion stems from the fact that most people perceive it as a "measure of economic development", while in fact it's political cold war terminology: First world = US + close allies Second world = USSR + close allies Third world = Everybody else
      - mktmkr 7y ago
        Switzerland was third world under this definition?
tinus_hn 7y ago
The Dutch version of this database supposedly only keeps data of people associated with serious crimes. It has 1.3 million people (all of the Netherlands has about 17 million). These supposed restrictions are just a ruse.
sctb 7y ago
Thanks, we've updated the title from the submitted “Photos and fingerprints of all EU citizens copied from the UK to the US”.

by miahi 7y ago

pknight 7y ago

>There is no centralized database for EU citizens photos or fingerprints (not even at national level in many countries). "The database will aggregate the details of more than 350 million people, including their identifying information, such as names, passport number, dates of birth, as well as biometrics like fingerprints and facial scans." https://www.computing.co.uk/ctg/news/3074472/eu-parliament-votes-to-create-biometrics-database-of-350-million-people https://www.computing.co.uk/ctg/news/3074472/eu-parliament-v...

yaris 7y ago
The link suggests that this was announced in April this year. Do you think all the necessary DBs have already been connected? I would expect it to happen next year earliest.
- pknight 7y ago
  I suspect it's nowhere near live yet, but it's relevant to this topic. There will be a massive new database and it's a terribly unlikely that this data will not be leaked or shared at some point.
- powi88nxjdi 7y ago
  So what if it was announced in April? Do we really believe we ca trust these groups with this data? This is like the Vogons justifying blowing up a planet because the paperwork was filed years ago. It’s not about the details. It’s about trust in institutions and I’m pretty sure we can see we should have none with these official bodies and the corporate buddies they give our work away to
ptaipale 7y ago
>"will aggregate" This was an announced intention in April this year. The implementation of this decision probably needs further approvals and ratifications, and even after that, it takes time. The source material does not even exist, and I expect that in some EU countries collecting this data of all citizens will not be possible due to country legislation. Thus this is certainly far from complete, if even started at all. It's safe to say that there is no database of 350 million EU citizens' fingerprints that anyone could copy.
- dangerface 7y ago
  So we should wait until every one's details are leaked before deciding this is a bad idea because it will inevitably leak? This is like the police refusing to respond to death threats until the person is dead.
  - IanCal 7y ago
    What they seem to be saying is not that the data hasn't leaked, but that it likely does not even exist. If that's true, a headline of "X has been copied" would be wrong if X didn't exist.
    - dangerface 7y ago
      The data does exist, and they are and have been collating it into one super database according to the article pknight posted. So I go back to my argument: > So we should wait until every one's details are leaked before deciding this is a bad idea because it will inevitably leak?
      - ptaipale 7y ago
        You claim the data does exist - but where did it come from? There has been no program to forcibly collect fingerprints of all EU citizens. There is some biometric data collected for Schengen passports, but not even close to all people even have a passport. And if you claim my biometric passport fingerprints are in that DB, you are claiming that the police in my country has performed a massive illegal data handover. If you have evidence of that, give it - heads will roll.

throwaway744678 7y ago

Regarding fingerprints, let's not forget that non-police system (eg. biometric passports) only register a subset of flat prints. On French passports, only two fingers are saved, and the prints are 'flat' - not rolled . Those are usable as a verification (is the holder of the document the actual owner?), but would prove very hard to use to identify someone out of a crowd (whose prints are on this gun/knife/glass?).

tapland 7y ago
Passports are only handled by the police in some EU-countries, but I guess they use the same fingerprint rules.

rasz 7y ago

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eu-fingerprints/fingerprints-in-european-passports-legal-eu-court-idUKBRE99G0FX20131017 https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eu-fingerprints/fingerprin...

powi88nxjdi 7y ago

Ok so it’s not all EU citizens What’s more interesting to me is in the Tweet: UK made illegals copies of hundreds of millions of people’s data (since you were mostly hung up on that, I qualified it better). Are you seeing the interesting takeaway?

wuliwong 7y ago
HN self-polices the titles here pretty well. Correcting inaccurate titles is a regular occurrence on HN. I think it leads to a much better user experience. Wanting an accurate headline on HN does not have to conflate to a person not understanding or disagreeing with the linked content. It can just be a representation of an overall goal of the HN community to keep headlines accurate.
miahi 7y ago
Another (small) correction: There aren't hundred of millions persons registered in the SIS. The "hundred of millions" comes from the number of EU citizens. Of course, one person's data leaked is too many, but anyway, that's how it is. Also, most of the person alerts do not have binaries (photos or fingerprints); usually only the persons that have an European Arrest Warrant do have these. I see this as more of a security issue than a privacy issue. The data in the SIS is mostly about law enforcement, meaning that a leak would expose that a person is wanted (some of the person searches are undercover, and the data also covers a person's aliases - so if a "bad" person has access to the data it can react) and also, the SIS data is a "living" organism - using a copy (snapshot) of the data in a law enforcement activity is actually unlawful - if the snapshot is old it means that you cannot find a person that was added yesterday and also that you will find a person that was "cleared" yesterday.

zoobab 7y ago

Is it enough to remove the "all"? I understand not all EU citizens were in the database.

wuliwong 7y ago
That would seem fine. Possibly add a reference to the Schengen Information System to be specific?
miahi 7y ago
I would say it's more generic than that. Not all the data is for EU citizens, and not all the data has photos and fingerprints. What dangerface quoted from the euobserver[1] seems to be the best approach, maybe make it shorter... As I said in another comment, I would emphasize more on the "classified" than "personal information", but that's only me (I would say Facebook has way more info on "normal" people than what's in the SIS database). There's also the issue of "copied to US", which was not demonstrated. It's really hard to keep all the US companies out of the SIS when you are using an Oracle database. I would put it like this: "UK made illegal copies of classified personal information from the Schengen Information System" [1] https://euobserver.com/justice/145530 https://euobserver.com/justice/145530

bonjurkes 7y ago

It also includes information of 3rd world country citizens'. Like passport info, photos, fingerprints, their visit to Schengen countries. When you apply for visa for Schengen countries, your info will be recorded on SIS. And stored there for 5 years. Note: EU uses the term "3rd world country" term themselves and Im citizen of one of those countries.

miahi 7y ago
There is no visa information in the SIS, you are probably referring to a different system (maybe VIS). Yes, when you apply for visa you will probably be _searched_ in the SIS, but this will happen many times in the EU anyway (or even before approaching the EU - likely when boarding a flight to an EU country).
stordoff 7y ago
Do you mean "Third country"? I have not come across the EU using "Third world country" officially.
- cat199 7y ago
  not to mention that eu+us+uk does not equal the so-called '1st world' in it's entirety (see also: canada, japan), and also that there is some notion of a '2nd world' as well.
  - ricudis 7y ago
    The confusion stems from the fact that most people perceive it as a "measure of economic development", while in fact it's political cold war terminology: First world = US + close allies Second world = USSR + close allies Third world = Everybody else
    - mktmkr 7y ago
      Switzerland was third world under this definition?

tinus_hn 7y ago

The Dutch version of this database supposedly only keeps data of people associated with serious crimes. It has 1.3 million people (all of the Netherlands has about 17 million). These supposed restrictions are just a ruse.

sctb 7y ago

Thanks, we've updated the title from the submitted “Photos and fingerprints of all EU citizens copied from the UK to the US”.