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> if we can popularize a safe option, we can just flag all the unsafe approaches I am not a lawyer, but I think under european privacy laws those approaches ar

• tialaramex 7y ago
  One of the things mentioned in that Plenary is that partial technical solutions embolden regulators and legislators. We don't have to make everything bad impossible. We can make it a bit harder to do the wrong thing, and then the regulator says "Hey, do the easy thing these nerds recommend or else if we find you did the wrong thing you're in bad trouble".
• sp332 7y ago
  If you can't tell what data is being sent or retrieved, how will you prosecute them?
  • tialaramex 7y ago
    I can't tell what my 2028 model Foo Corp. Smart TV is sending to the HBO servers or why, it's technically impossible thanks to cryptography. But a Federal Prosecutor can tell a judge these are the only Smart TVs that do that, and he thinks it's because they're violating the Tialaramex No Snooping Act of 2025, so he wants a warrant to see what HBO receives. The warrant doesn't magically decrypt the packets - but refusing to obey the warrant is contempt of court, for which you can go to jail. An HBO employee shows the Prosecutor their database labelled "snooping" full of data from Foo Corp TVs that sure enough violates the No Snooping Act.
    • sp332 7y ago
      Don't you need probable cause to get a warrant? This might be different in Europe actually... but it seems a bit thin.
      • FeepingCreature 7y ago
        In Europe, with the GDPR, you can just ask the company what they have on you.
        • gcbw2 7y ago
          "Hey company in shenzen that i suspect is a shady front to illegal data mining business, do you have any data on me? i'm john doe, living at 123 naive st #42, phone number 555-555-555, national registry number 1234556. You can reply to me on this same email address. thank you. PS: maybe i filled this in an webform, so please do not attach this new info to all the traffic/behaviour you previously collected from your TV on this same IP address"
      • tialaramex 7y ago
        Sure, so it depends on circumstances in the broader society. The judge needs to be convinced that on balance it's more likely the case that the prosecutor is right than not. That's all probable cause is. In today's IoT world where basically everybody does all this potentially shady stuff sending encrypted data to who knows where, and with no legislation on the books saying they mustn't, you would not get anywhere trying to obtain a warrant. But if things like WebThings Gateway were to make that unusual, so that as I said there aren't other Smart TVs sending mysterious stuff directly to HBO - that changes the balance of probabilities, and it also changes the incentive to regulate / legislate behaviours that are now less common and still undesirable so that what they're doing isn't just immoral it's illegal too. Circumstances change. In 1975 the idea that you shouldn't smoke cigarettes inside a train, deep under the ground, in a crowded city, was a bit weird. By 1983 it was illegal in London. In 1985 somebody who'd cut a few corners and was lighting a cigarette on the escalator out of the Underground caused a fire in which a lot of people died (a lot of other things went wrong, but none of them would have mattered if not for the cigarette). Today when we're trying to explain that fire to children it doesn't make a lot of sense to them. They don't remember it ever being legal to smoke cigarettes inside a building - it smells bad and looks obviously dangerous - why would somebody be doing it not just inside a building but so deep underground?
    • noobermin 7y ago
      In your utopian vision corporate executives actually face jail time for violating the law, that if anything seems a more difficult thing to accomplish today.