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I used to volunteer at a heritage railway in Northern Ireland. We had several old restored trains and we went to great lengths to make the station areas look au

I used to volunteer at a heritage railway in Northern Ireland. We had several old restored trains and we went to great lengths to make the station areas look authentically old. Naturally photographers loved it. Most photographers were Okay and respected the rules, but some some just refused and couldn't handle being called out. For example one rule was do not get in train cabs, unless by prior arrangement - which involved doing a safety briefing etc. Still some photographers just did their own thing. Some would jump on to the footplates of in service steam locomotives to get their shot, that was dangerous but they didn't care. I was driving a diesel railcar and had a passenger bang on the cab door so he could take shots from within the cab. He kept banging for about 10 minutes until we got back to the station and was then had a go at me for refusing him access. Another strict rule was no tripods on the platforms. It was dangerous as they created a tripping hazard and just ruined the atmosphere for other visitors. But come a sunny day or special event the forest of tripods would be out in force. And the worst of all was the ones who would walk off the end of platforms and setup alongside the railway line. Most wouldn't even bother to wear a hi-viz vest either. Completely dangerous, but they didn't care they just wanted their special shot. These weren't just our rules, many were in place because of laws and insurance requirements. We didn't want accidents, nor did we want a few visitors to ruin the atmosphere for others. But when we called called out such people we often got abuse, which would then be followed up by long rants about how unaccommodating we were in various photography and railway forums. The thing is we would allow photographers to access cabs, use tripods and go alongside the line - so long as they arranged it with us first. And during special events we would often have an hour set aside specifically for photographers to go to town. But for some that wasn't enough. For a lot of heritage railways in the UK and Ireland the misbehavior of some photographers has got so bad they have a blanket ban on cameras with remediable lenses.

atoav 7y ago
I don’t really get it. I studied film and therefore had to talk to many places about permissions (often without beeing able to pay any compensation) – usually just asking nicely and explaining whatbyou want can get you a long way. Sometimes people will even come on their day off and help you out. This is about mutual respect: if anyone takes the time and effort to open a place for people with cameras, if what you want disrupts their usual flow, the least you should do is ask for permission.
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  See my reply elsewhere. I was talking to a bus driver recently who said someone had lost their card and demanded rudely the driver let him on anyway. The driver said words to the effect of, please be polite and I will. The guy said he wasn't going to be polite. So he didn't get his ride. I don't get it either.
- Sharlin 7y ago
  Egotism, selfishness, lack of empathy, entitlement. A nice collection of "dark triad" personality traits.
- DanBC 7y ago
  See also street photography, where just asking people if it's ok to take their photo makes life nicer and easier. Photographers are mostly allowed to take photos of people in the street, but some of them can be pretty obnoxious about it.
  - digikazi 7y ago
    Bruce Gilden springs to mind when you mention "obnoxious" photographers. His technique is to just shove a camera in somebody's face and take the shot. Often there's a flash involved too. Watching a YouTube video of him doing his thing on the streets of NY was both quite horrifying and very, very cringey. I'm genuinely surprised nobody hit him yet.
    - zerkten 7y ago
      I wasn't familiar with Bruce Gilden, but the first YouTube video I watched was https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkIWW6vwrvM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkIWW6vwrvM. My take is that this is a very different kind of "obnoxious" than what was described in the original article. Most people attempting to imitate him would be that bad kind of obnoxious. I haven't done much research, but Bruce Gilden strikes me someone who is a pioneer of (NYC) street photography. He has been doing it for a long time and doesn't seem like a photo hipster. Maybe he was considered one when he started out. The fact he wears photography attire is probably disarming in a way. If it was someone trying to blend in then it might be different. The photos from the video are not derpy photos as my wife likes to describe my portraits of hers so he is trying to show an interesting side of life. I'm sure a lot of pictures don't meet his standards. Within photo groups in my city, I see a lot of people into street photography because it's the cool aesthetic that matches with their urban lifestyle. It's cool to be into photography, so they got a digital rangefinder and jumped into it without thinking about the art or technique. They form a cargo cult, but often they get broken from it upon discovery that there is more to photography that they are missing. The obnoxious instragrammers are not likely to have the same outcome.
tempguy9999 7y ago
Indirectly related, living in the UK there seems to be a growing culture of 'fuck you' in this country. Not a lack of etiquette or the trivial please and thank-you, those I can do without, you can still be sweary and abrupt and still considerate, I mean a fundamental selfishness. It seems to be bigger among younger people, 20s to 30s, and I will emphasize that it's uncommon and that the great majority of people at any age still behave very decently, but I can feel it.
- zimpenfish 7y ago
  > Indirectly related, living in the UK there seems to be a growing culture of 'fuck you' in this country. Well, when the elite are all shining exemplars of "fuck you, I got mine" with demonstrably no consequences for those actions, and TV is full of reality shows pushing the same message, people (especially the young) will pick up on that.
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    No, this is different an may come from a very different source. I worked in the city and was expecting to meet spoilt brats in suits, well why not, they earn a fucking fortune some of them[0] they don't need to bother with manners. At a personal level I found them very decent and considerate, deeply and genuinely so. The problem in the city of scarfing up too much money seemed to me to be down to them just not understanding how much it hurt other people. They were born, if not wealthy then certainly nowhere near poor, so never understood what the stress of not knowing you can pay the rent does to you. I felt it to be an ignorance problem not an attitude problem. Though YMMV as americans say. [0] which mostly they didn't deserve. They were no more competent than the average man on the street and in fact considerably less so in some ways as they'd been 'poisoned' with abundant corporate money - they didn't understand you can get a lot done with moderate cash; they expected to throw cash at everything. It produced a very inefficient way of working, exactly the opposite of what the capitalist culture should have done. It made them stupid. It made it an incredibly frustrating place to work and I had to hand in my notice. I read somewhere that the designer of the original ARM cpu said his boss had given him 2 great gifts, no money and no staff. These were not gifts the square mil hands around easily. Edit: sorry, I realised how far I've wandered off-topic. Happy to delete if you wish.
holografix 7y ago
This is obviously terrible behaviour. As an amateur photographer myself I particularly dislike the Instagram driven “race to the bottom”. However... I do think in a situation such as this it’s a missed commercial opportunity. If I managed a highly “Instagrammable” private location I’d aggressively enforce good conduct and at the same time have paid access to alternative times for photographers. You want to be a selfish dick and ruin the common good so you extract more value for yourself? Pay for it.
- neogodless 7y ago
  You're a lavender farmer. Do you also want to run a tourism business, including hiring security to enforce that only paying customers get the exclusive benefit you are now selling? I doubt it. That "aggressively enforce good conduct" is key. There are dozens, hundreds of people showing up at the same time at some of these places.
  - princetman 7y ago
    Here in UK we have a few lavender farmers who does exactly that. https://www.mayfieldlavender.com/mayfield-lavender-farm/ https://www.mayfieldlavender.com/mayfield-lavender-farm/
  - wutbrodo 7y ago
    I think that, sadly, that decision was taken out the farmer's hands once the hordes of instagrammers started showing up. The choice he's faced now is "run a tourism business that keeps it skmehwta quarantined from your main business" or "run an unmanaged tourism giveaway that harms your main business".
  - holografix 7y ago
    Noticed I mentioned a private location. Sure if you’re having to monitor acres of farmland that’s harder.
Carpetsmoker 7y ago
To be honest, at least part of this sounds more like inane British "safety" bullshit to me. Jumping on trains is clearly wtf and unacceptable, but no tripods because "too dangerous"? Yeah nah. If you're getting a lot of abuse then your system probably stinks, as, by and large, people aren't assholes or want to be angry. They just want to take their holiday snaps, you know. So here's an alternative take: just let people take their holiday pictures. If you're really that worried about people getting stabbed to death by tripods or whatever then set of a "tripod area", or make sure it's at least 4 metres from the rail track, or whatever. So many more options than "no fun allowed!" (Of course, all the British all really tired of being told what to do all the time, so give a British person just one iota of power and they will transform in to the most pedantic and inflexible person.)
- throwmamatrain 7y ago
  It's obvious you've never been to a place that has a wall of tripods setup. It doesn't have to do with being stabbed by a tripod, it has to do with a human taking up way more space than they should be in a crowded area. You're free to take up as much space as you like, but if you don't like people being upset at you (rightfully so?) then don't? Let's take your tripping argument at it's face value, does tripping + trains sound like a good idea? The better take is, if you don't like the rules you can simply leave.
  - Carpetsmoker 7y ago
    > t doesn't have to do with being stabbed by a tripod, it has to do with a human taking up way more space than they should be That was not the argument that was put forth. > does tripping + trains sound like a good idea? Yes, I've often seen people trip and fly 6 metres through the air in front of a train. > The better take is, if you don't like the rules you can simply leave. That's just a silly discussion stopper. As I already said in my previous comment, there are many more possible options than a "strict rule of no tripods". These kind of sites exist for people to enjoy their hobby and heritage, and the smart and empathic course of action is to enable that for as many people as possible, and if that includes tripods, then so be it, and that should be accommodated as best as possible. "Strictly no tripods", finger-wagging, and rulebook-thumping is unconstructive at best.
zerkten 7y ago
From a fellow Northern Irish person - thanks for volunteering! I'm a photographer and it really horrifies me when I see people acting like this. I research what is appropriate gear and technique for shoots. I try to influence situations when I see staff are under pressure from patrons, or someone is asking questions that have been clearly answered elsewhere, but it's often a losing battle. People here in the US can be obnoxious at times, but I don't generally see the level of abuse that I've seen in NI. It's horrible that people even take this stuff online.
dfps 7y ago
Not to be rude, and i could be wrong, but the rules you mentuon sound stupid and gratuitous, rather than the photographers being a problem.

atoav 7y ago

I don’t really get it. I studied film and therefore had to talk to many places about permissions (often without beeing able to pay any compensation) – usually just asking nicely and explaining whatbyou want can get you a long way. Sometimes people will even come on their day off and help you out. This is about mutual respect: if anyone takes the time and effort to open a place for people with cameras, if what you want disrupts their usual flow, the least you should do is ask for permission.

tempguy9999 7y ago
See my reply elsewhere. I was talking to a bus driver recently who said someone had lost their card and demanded rudely the driver let him on anyway. The driver said words to the effect of, please be polite and I will. The guy said he wasn't going to be polite. So he didn't get his ride. I don't get it either.
Sharlin 7y ago
Egotism, selfishness, lack of empathy, entitlement. A nice collection of "dark triad" personality traits.
DanBC 7y ago
See also street photography, where just asking people if it's ok to take their photo makes life nicer and easier. Photographers are mostly allowed to take photos of people in the street, but some of them can be pretty obnoxious about it.
- digikazi 7y ago
  Bruce Gilden springs to mind when you mention "obnoxious" photographers. His technique is to just shove a camera in somebody's face and take the shot. Often there's a flash involved too. Watching a YouTube video of him doing his thing on the streets of NY was both quite horrifying and very, very cringey. I'm genuinely surprised nobody hit him yet.
  - zerkten 7y ago
    I wasn't familiar with Bruce Gilden, but the first YouTube video I watched was https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkIWW6vwrvM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkIWW6vwrvM. My take is that this is a very different kind of "obnoxious" than what was described in the original article. Most people attempting to imitate him would be that bad kind of obnoxious. I haven't done much research, but Bruce Gilden strikes me someone who is a pioneer of (NYC) street photography. He has been doing it for a long time and doesn't seem like a photo hipster. Maybe he was considered one when he started out. The fact he wears photography attire is probably disarming in a way. If it was someone trying to blend in then it might be different. The photos from the video are not derpy photos as my wife likes to describe my portraits of hers so he is trying to show an interesting side of life. I'm sure a lot of pictures don't meet his standards. Within photo groups in my city, I see a lot of people into street photography because it's the cool aesthetic that matches with their urban lifestyle. It's cool to be into photography, so they got a digital rangefinder and jumped into it without thinking about the art or technique. They form a cargo cult, but often they get broken from it upon discovery that there is more to photography that they are missing. The obnoxious instragrammers are not likely to have the same outcome.

tempguy9999 7y ago

Indirectly related, living in the UK there seems to be a growing culture of 'fuck you' in this country. Not a lack of etiquette or the trivial please and thank-you, those I can do without, you can still be sweary and abrupt and still considerate, I mean a fundamental selfishness. It seems to be bigger among younger people, 20s to 30s, and I will emphasize that it's uncommon and that the great majority of people at any age still behave very decently, but I can feel it.

zimpenfish 7y ago
> Indirectly related, living in the UK there seems to be a growing culture of 'fuck you' in this country. Well, when the elite are all shining exemplars of "fuck you, I got mine" with demonstrably no consequences for those actions, and TV is full of reality shows pushing the same message, people (especially the young) will pick up on that.
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  No, this is different an may come from a very different source. I worked in the city and was expecting to meet spoilt brats in suits, well why not, they earn a fucking fortune some of them[0] they don't need to bother with manners. At a personal level I found them very decent and considerate, deeply and genuinely so. The problem in the city of scarfing up too much money seemed to me to be down to them just not understanding how much it hurt other people. They were born, if not wealthy then certainly nowhere near poor, so never understood what the stress of not knowing you can pay the rent does to you. I felt it to be an ignorance problem not an attitude problem. Though YMMV as americans say. [0] which mostly they didn't deserve. They were no more competent than the average man on the street and in fact considerably less so in some ways as they'd been 'poisoned' with abundant corporate money - they didn't understand you can get a lot done with moderate cash; they expected to throw cash at everything. It produced a very inefficient way of working, exactly the opposite of what the capitalist culture should have done. It made them stupid. It made it an incredibly frustrating place to work and I had to hand in my notice. I read somewhere that the designer of the original ARM cpu said his boss had given him 2 great gifts, no money and no staff. These were not gifts the square mil hands around easily. Edit: sorry, I realised how far I've wandered off-topic. Happy to delete if you wish.

holografix 7y ago

This is obviously terrible behaviour. As an amateur photographer myself I particularly dislike the Instagram driven “race to the bottom”. However... I do think in a situation such as this it’s a missed commercial opportunity. If I managed a highly “Instagrammable” private location I’d aggressively enforce good conduct and at the same time have paid access to alternative times for photographers. You want to be a selfish dick and ruin the common good so you extract more value for yourself? Pay for it.

neogodless 7y ago
You're a lavender farmer. Do you also want to run a tourism business, including hiring security to enforce that only paying customers get the exclusive benefit you are now selling? I doubt it. That "aggressively enforce good conduct" is key. There are dozens, hundreds of people showing up at the same time at some of these places.
- princetman 7y ago
  Here in UK we have a few lavender farmers who does exactly that. https://www.mayfieldlavender.com/mayfield-lavender-farm/ https://www.mayfieldlavender.com/mayfield-lavender-farm/
- wutbrodo 7y ago
  I think that, sadly, that decision was taken out the farmer's hands once the hordes of instagrammers started showing up. The choice he's faced now is "run a tourism business that keeps it skmehwta quarantined from your main business" or "run an unmanaged tourism giveaway that harms your main business".
- holografix 7y ago
  Noticed I mentioned a private location. Sure if you’re having to monitor acres of farmland that’s harder.

Carpetsmoker 7y ago

To be honest, at least part of this sounds more like inane British "safety" bullshit to me. Jumping on trains is clearly wtf and unacceptable, but no tripods because "too dangerous"? Yeah nah. If you're getting a lot of abuse then your system probably stinks, as, by and large, people aren't assholes or want to be angry. They just want to take their holiday snaps, you know. So here's an alternative take: just let people take their holiday pictures. If you're really that worried about people getting stabbed to death by tripods or whatever then set of a "tripod area", or make sure it's at least 4 metres from the rail track, or whatever. So many more options than "no fun allowed!" (Of course, all the British all really tired of being told what to do all the time, so give a British person just one iota of power and they will transform in to the most pedantic and inflexible person.)

throwmamatrain 7y ago
It's obvious you've never been to a place that has a wall of tripods setup. It doesn't have to do with being stabbed by a tripod, it has to do with a human taking up way more space than they should be in a crowded area. You're free to take up as much space as you like, but if you don't like people being upset at you (rightfully so?) then don't? Let's take your tripping argument at it's face value, does tripping + trains sound like a good idea? The better take is, if you don't like the rules you can simply leave.
- Carpetsmoker 7y ago
  > t doesn't have to do with being stabbed by a tripod, it has to do with a human taking up way more space than they should be That was not the argument that was put forth. > does tripping + trains sound like a good idea? Yes, I've often seen people trip and fly 6 metres through the air in front of a train. > The better take is, if you don't like the rules you can simply leave. That's just a silly discussion stopper. As I already said in my previous comment, there are many more possible options than a "strict rule of no tripods". These kind of sites exist for people to enjoy their hobby and heritage, and the smart and empathic course of action is to enable that for as many people as possible, and if that includes tripods, then so be it, and that should be accommodated as best as possible. "Strictly no tripods", finger-wagging, and rulebook-thumping is unconstructive at best.

zerkten 7y ago

From a fellow Northern Irish person - thanks for volunteering! I'm a photographer and it really horrifies me when I see people acting like this. I research what is appropriate gear and technique for shoots. I try to influence situations when I see staff are under pressure from patrons, or someone is asking questions that have been clearly answered elsewhere, but it's often a losing battle. People here in the US can be obnoxious at times, but I don't generally see the level of abuse that I've seen in NI. It's horrible that people even take this stuff online.

dfps 7y ago

Not to be rude, and i could be wrong, but the rules you mentuon sound stupid and gratuitous, rather than the photographers being a problem.