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> Many gay subcultures are thoroughly obsessed with appearance. ... I wandered into a gay house party one day was amazed at how every single guy there was much

> Many gay subcultures are thoroughly obsessed with appearance. ... I wandered into a gay house party one day was amazed at how every single guy there was much better looking than I was. Sorry, but your one accidental foray into a single gay party is not exactly convincing evidence for your theory. More importantly, even if gay men care about their appearance more than straight men, I'm not convinced that the behavior is purely linked to them being gay, as much as social norms that have developed around what "being gay" is "supposed to be". Sure gay people often run in different social circles as straight people, and it makes sense that they would have different norms. But similarly, people in Paris are generally far more attractive and fashionable than folks in St. Louis. There is little genetically different from these people, it's just the norms that they develop in.

vinceguidry 7y ago
I didn't claim to have a proper explanation for my observation. Your guess is as good as mine.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  Explanation: gay men are trying to attract men, and men care a lot about (the other person's) appearance.
  - speedplane 7y ago
    > gay men are trying to attract men, and men care a lot about (the other person's) appearance Even if this is true today, I'm not sure it's anything more than a modern day social trend. Why should men care more about appearance than women? On a "selfish gene" level, in choosing a mate, both sexes should mostly care about passing on their genetic material. Appearance certainly can be a factor in that decision, but it's only one of many (e.g., responsibility, trustworthiness, work ethic, etc.). If in today's society, men do care more about appearances than women, I strongly suspect that is a function of the structure of our society itself than anything genetic or innate. One could easily imagine a society where gay men care less about appearances than straight men.
    - thaumasiotes 7y ago
      > Even if this is true today, I'm not sure it's anything more than a modern day social trend. You're in luck! Records of the last several thousand years exhaustively document that ornamenting your appearance is characteristically a female behavior. For example, check out this text from the Iliad: > [The Carians] were commanded by Nastes and Amphimachus, the brave sons of Nomion. He came into the fight with gold about him, like a girl; fool that he was, his gold was of no avail to save him, for he fell in the river by the hand of the fleet descendant of Aeacus, and Achilles bore away his gold.
      - emiliobumachar 7y ago
        About that specific example, this could be because "girls" were perceived to be greedier in that ancient culture. In the modern day, I certainly wouldn't first associate "fighting for gold" with "wanting to look prettier".
        thaumasiotes 7y ago
        It's "wearing gold", χρυσὸν ἔχων, not "fighting for gold". They're fighting for Helen.
        emiliobumachar 7y ago
        Thanks for the clarification, I get it now.
    - homonculus1 7y ago
      From a purely functional point of view the man's entire contribution to reproduction can last as little as a few minutes. Therefore the cost of trying again is low, so it's not strictly necessary to consider the personality factors you mentioned. They take a long time to assess, which creates a trade-off between investing in marginal gains for the offspring vs. simply creating more. In short, men have the option of r-style reproduction which skews the selection criteria toward immediate visibility. Women on the other hand have to invest significantly more time and energy into reproduction every time, so the incentive is to find a mate with the best genes overall. Men are more likely to help raise their own offspring than another's, so a woman's best bet is to find one who is most likely and capable of doing so. Those traits are more difficult to discover but the marginal payoff is huge compared to a man who jets after five minutes. All of the above is pure conjecture on my part and I have no expertise. But consider the counterfactual: given sexual divergence and the asymmetry of reproduction, why would men and women have the same selection strategies on average?
emiliobumachar 7y ago
"social norms that have developed" are a big part of what a culture, or "subculture", is.
saiya-jin 7y ago
This is definitely true, can see it anywhere I go. Out of maybe 10 gay friends we currently have, there is 1 which cares about himself on normal guy level. Rest have at home more beauty chemistry than my wife (or her friends), always perfect hair trim, new trendy clothing matching perfectly with each other, also obsession with taking perfect selfies (meaning 30 minute sessions for 1 photo). Yes there are straight guys similarly obsessed with appearance/presentation (is the term 'metrosexual' still in?), but in far lower numbers

vinceguidry 7y ago

I didn't claim to have a proper explanation for my observation. Your guess is as good as mine.

thaumasiotes 7y ago
Explanation: gay men are trying to attract men, and men care a lot about (the other person's) appearance.
- speedplane 7y ago
  > gay men are trying to attract men, and men care a lot about (the other person's) appearance Even if this is true today, I'm not sure it's anything more than a modern day social trend. Why should men care more about appearance than women? On a "selfish gene" level, in choosing a mate, both sexes should mostly care about passing on their genetic material. Appearance certainly can be a factor in that decision, but it's only one of many (e.g., responsibility, trustworthiness, work ethic, etc.). If in today's society, men do care more about appearances than women, I strongly suspect that is a function of the structure of our society itself than anything genetic or innate. One could easily imagine a society where gay men care less about appearances than straight men.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    > Even if this is true today, I'm not sure it's anything more than a modern day social trend. You're in luck! Records of the last several thousand years exhaustively document that ornamenting your appearance is characteristically a female behavior. For example, check out this text from the Iliad: > [The Carians] were commanded by Nastes and Amphimachus, the brave sons of Nomion. He came into the fight with gold about him, like a girl; fool that he was, his gold was of no avail to save him, for he fell in the river by the hand of the fleet descendant of Aeacus, and Achilles bore away his gold.
    - emiliobumachar 7y ago
      About that specific example, this could be because "girls" were perceived to be greedier in that ancient culture. In the modern day, I certainly wouldn't first associate "fighting for gold" with "wanting to look prettier".
      - thaumasiotes 7y ago
        It's "wearing gold", χρυσὸν ἔχων, not "fighting for gold". They're fighting for Helen.
        emiliobumachar 7y ago
        Thanks for the clarification, I get it now.
  - homonculus1 7y ago
    From a purely functional point of view the man's entire contribution to reproduction can last as little as a few minutes. Therefore the cost of trying again is low, so it's not strictly necessary to consider the personality factors you mentioned. They take a long time to assess, which creates a trade-off between investing in marginal gains for the offspring vs. simply creating more. In short, men have the option of r-style reproduction which skews the selection criteria toward immediate visibility. Women on the other hand have to invest significantly more time and energy into reproduction every time, so the incentive is to find a mate with the best genes overall. Men are more likely to help raise their own offspring than another's, so a woman's best bet is to find one who is most likely and capable of doing so. Those traits are more difficult to discover but the marginal payoff is huge compared to a man who jets after five minutes. All of the above is pure conjecture on my part and I have no expertise. But consider the counterfactual: given sexual divergence and the asymmetry of reproduction, why would men and women have the same selection strategies on average?

emiliobumachar 7y ago

"social norms that have developed" are a big part of what a culture, or "subculture", is.

saiya-jin 7y ago

This is definitely true, can see it anywhere I go. Out of maybe 10 gay friends we currently have, there is 1 which cares about himself on normal guy level. Rest have at home more beauty chemistry than my wife (or her friends), always perfect hair trim, new trendy clothing matching perfectly with each other, also obsession with taking perfect selfies (meaning 30 minute sessions for 1 photo). Yes there are straight guys similarly obsessed with appearance/presentation (is the term 'metrosexual' still in?), but in far lower numbers