5 ms·

How does this relate to gay bars? Is it something that gay men take for other reasons?

vinceguidry 7y ago
Many gay subcultures are thoroughly obsessed with appearance. I'm not a bad looking guy, but I wandered into a gay house party one day and was amazed at how every single guy there was much better looking than I was. They all, and I mean every last one of them, and there were hundreds crammed into that penthouse suite, simply cared about their appearance way more.
- speedplane 7y ago
  > Many gay subcultures are thoroughly obsessed with appearance. ... I wandered into a gay house party one day was amazed at how every single guy there was much better looking than I was. Sorry, but your one accidental foray into a single gay party is not exactly convincing evidence for your theory. More importantly, even if gay men care about their appearance more than straight men, I'm not convinced that the behavior is purely linked to them being gay, as much as social norms that have developed around what "being gay" is "supposed to be". Sure gay people often run in different social circles as straight people, and it makes sense that they would have different norms. But similarly, people in Paris are generally far more attractive and fashionable than folks in St. Louis. There is little genetically different from these people, it's just the norms that they develop in.
  - vinceguidry 7y ago
    I didn't claim to have a proper explanation for my observation. Your guess is as good as mine.
    - thaumasiotes 7y ago
      Explanation: gay men are trying to attract men, and men care a lot about (the other person's) appearance.
      - speedplane 7y ago
        > gay men are trying to attract men, and men care a lot about (the other person's) appearance Even if this is true today, I'm not sure it's anything more than a modern day social trend. Why should men care more about appearance than women? On a "selfish gene" level, in choosing a mate, both sexes should mostly care about passing on their genetic material. Appearance certainly can be a factor in that decision, but it's only one of many (e.g., responsibility, trustworthiness, work ethic, etc.). If in today's society, men do care more about appearances than women, I strongly suspect that is a function of the structure of our society itself than anything genetic or innate. One could easily imagine a society where gay men care less about appearances than straight men.
        thaumasiotes 7y ago
        > Even if this is true today, I'm not sure it's anything more than a modern day social trend. You're in luck! Records of the last several thousand years exhaustively document that ornamenting your appearance is characteristically a female behavior. For example, check out this text from the Iliad: > [The Carians] were commanded by Nastes and Amphimachus, the brave sons of Nomion. He came into the fight with gold about him, like a girl; fool that he was, his gold was of no avail to save him, for he fell in the river by the hand of the fleet descendant of Aeacus, and Achilles bore away his gold.
        emiliobumachar 7y ago
        About that specific example, this could be because "girls" were perceived to be greedier in that ancient culture. In the modern day, I certainly wouldn't first associate "fighting for gold" with "wanting to look prettier".
        thaumasiotes 7y ago
        It's "wearing gold", χρυσὸν ἔχων, not "fighting for gold". They're fighting for Helen.
  - emiliobumachar 7y ago
    "social norms that have developed" are a big part of what a culture, or "subculture", is.
  - saiya-jin 7y ago
    This is definitely true, can see it anywhere I go. Out of maybe 10 gay friends we currently have, there is 1 which cares about himself on normal guy level. Rest have at home more beauty chemistry than my wife (or her friends), always perfect hair trim, new trendy clothing matching perfectly with each other, also obsession with taking perfect selfies (meaning 30 minute sessions for 1 photo). Yes there are straight guys similarly obsessed with appearance/presentation (is the term 'metrosexual' still in?), but in far lower numbers
- Raphmedia 7y ago
  I would argue that it is not that gay culture that is obsessed with appearance, but that it is male heterosexual culture that is adverse to self-care. There are many men who do not even consider taking care of themselves for fear that their masculinity will decrease. Many gay men are free from these fears. From my perspective as someone who has had an insider's perspective of heterosexual male culture, gay male culture, and then female culture (I am a transgender woman), homosexual men do not make more effort in their appearance than most women when they go out. Going to a gay bar is a often big event of the week or month, some people travel far to go there. It's not the same as going to a dive bar to get drunk. It's a place where you can be at your best and meet people - it's a community hub. The people you meet there are the best on sunday's best. The same way you would wear a suit or at least clean up before a business meeting or recruitment day. Often, it is an outlet for being yourself, since some people are conscious when they are in public or at work and censor themselves. As someone else said, "Maybe the reason you're not seeing bald men in these bars is the swimmer effect. i.e. bald men aren't successful there so bald men don't show up." It would be erroneous to believe that the behaviours observed in such a place are representative of their daily lives.
  - vinceguidry 7y ago
    I agree with you in principle, but this house party really was something else. They didn't just primp themselves up to look good for this event. They all looked like male models, fit, tanned, healthy. You can't look like these guys did without a lot of work. Diet, exercise, I felt like I'd walked onto a Hollywood set. I wish I could have stuck around and mingled, gotten a sense for what in the holy heck I was witnessing, but large masses of people make me super uncomfortable. So I went back down to my apt.
    - Raphmedia 7y ago
      Enter any nightclub and you will find masses of slender, tanned women in great shape, wearing makeup and sexy clothes. But this house party sounds like survivor bias at play. One fit person invited their best looking friends, who then invited their friends, who then invited theirs. Anyone who does not fit the narrative (straight, gay or other) will feel the same unease you did and leave.

Many gay subcultures are thoroughly obsessed with appearance. I'm not a bad looking guy, but I wandered into a gay house party one day and was amazed at how every single guy there was much better looking than I was. They all, and I mean every last one of them, and there were hundreds crammed into that penthouse suite, simply cared about their appearance way more.

speedplane 7y ago
> Many gay subcultures are thoroughly obsessed with appearance. ... I wandered into a gay house party one day was amazed at how every single guy there was much better looking than I was. Sorry, but your one accidental foray into a single gay party is not exactly convincing evidence for your theory. More importantly, even if gay men care about their appearance more than straight men, I'm not convinced that the behavior is purely linked to them being gay, as much as social norms that have developed around what "being gay" is "supposed to be". Sure gay people often run in different social circles as straight people, and it makes sense that they would have different norms. But similarly, people in Paris are generally far more attractive and fashionable than folks in St. Louis. There is little genetically different from these people, it's just the norms that they develop in.
- vinceguidry 7y ago
  I didn't claim to have a proper explanation for my observation. Your guess is as good as mine.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    Explanation: gay men are trying to attract men, and men care a lot about (the other person's) appearance.
    - speedplane 7y ago
      > gay men are trying to attract men, and men care a lot about (the other person's) appearance Even if this is true today, I'm not sure it's anything more than a modern day social trend. Why should men care more about appearance than women? On a "selfish gene" level, in choosing a mate, both sexes should mostly care about passing on their genetic material. Appearance certainly can be a factor in that decision, but it's only one of many (e.g., responsibility, trustworthiness, work ethic, etc.). If in today's society, men do care more about appearances than women, I strongly suspect that is a function of the structure of our society itself than anything genetic or innate. One could easily imagine a society where gay men care less about appearances than straight men.
      - thaumasiotes 7y ago
        > Even if this is true today, I'm not sure it's anything more than a modern day social trend. You're in luck! Records of the last several thousand years exhaustively document that ornamenting your appearance is characteristically a female behavior. For example, check out this text from the Iliad: > [The Carians] were commanded by Nastes and Amphimachus, the brave sons of Nomion. He came into the fight with gold about him, like a girl; fool that he was, his gold was of no avail to save him, for he fell in the river by the hand of the fleet descendant of Aeacus, and Achilles bore away his gold.
        emiliobumachar 7y ago
        About that specific example, this could be because "girls" were perceived to be greedier in that ancient culture. In the modern day, I certainly wouldn't first associate "fighting for gold" with "wanting to look prettier".
        thaumasiotes 7y ago
        It's "wearing gold", χρυσὸν ἔχων, not "fighting for gold". They're fighting for Helen.
- emiliobumachar 7y ago
  "social norms that have developed" are a big part of what a culture, or "subculture", is.
- saiya-jin 7y ago
  This is definitely true, can see it anywhere I go. Out of maybe 10 gay friends we currently have, there is 1 which cares about himself on normal guy level. Rest have at home more beauty chemistry than my wife (or her friends), always perfect hair trim, new trendy clothing matching perfectly with each other, also obsession with taking perfect selfies (meaning 30 minute sessions for 1 photo). Yes there are straight guys similarly obsessed with appearance/presentation (is the term 'metrosexual' still in?), but in far lower numbers
Raphmedia 7y ago
I would argue that it is not that gay culture that is obsessed with appearance, but that it is male heterosexual culture that is adverse to self-care. There are many men who do not even consider taking care of themselves for fear that their masculinity will decrease. Many gay men are free from these fears. From my perspective as someone who has had an insider's perspective of heterosexual male culture, gay male culture, and then female culture (I am a transgender woman), homosexual men do not make more effort in their appearance than most women when they go out. Going to a gay bar is a often big event of the week or month, some people travel far to go there. It's not the same as going to a dive bar to get drunk. It's a place where you can be at your best and meet people - it's a community hub. The people you meet there are the best on sunday's best. The same way you would wear a suit or at least clean up before a business meeting or recruitment day. Often, it is an outlet for being yourself, since some people are conscious when they are in public or at work and censor themselves. As someone else said, "Maybe the reason you're not seeing bald men in these bars is the swimmer effect. i.e. bald men aren't successful there so bald men don't show up." It would be erroneous to believe that the behaviours observed in such a place are representative of their daily lives.
- vinceguidry 7y ago
  I agree with you in principle, but this house party really was something else. They didn't just primp themselves up to look good for this event. They all looked like male models, fit, tanned, healthy. You can't look like these guys did without a lot of work. Diet, exercise, I felt like I'd walked onto a Hollywood set. I wish I could have stuck around and mingled, gotten a sense for what in the holy heck I was witnessing, but large masses of people make me super uncomfortable. So I went back down to my apt.
  - Raphmedia 7y ago
    Enter any nightclub and you will find masses of slender, tanned women in great shape, wearing makeup and sexy clothes. But this house party sounds like survivor bias at play. One fit person invited their best looking friends, who then invited their friends, who then invited theirs. Anyone who does not fit the narrative (straight, gay or other) will feel the same unease you did and leave.