6 ms·

>for the most part the population is participating in it If anyone ever dared to assert that I support US war mongering just because I live the US..... lord

narrowingorbits 7y ago
With taxes, you do.
- ConcernedCoder 7y ago
  Yeah, instead you can show your solidarity against it by going to federal prison for tax evasion...
  - geofft 7y ago
    They couldn't fit all of us into prisons, if we all refused to pay taxes.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - squirrelicus 7y ago
    Or you could choose to become a citizen of a country you support instead. I'm not saying "get out if you're not all in", I'm not trying to be dismissive. But your citizenship and temperament are accidents of your birth, and you have the power to rectify the former.
    - filleduchaos 7y ago
      > But your citizenship and temperament are accidents of your birth, and you have the power to rectify the former. This is an incredibly naive/somewhat condescending statement, considering that it is far beyond the reach of the vast majority of people.
      - quaquaqua1 7y ago
        Agreed, instead of giving up my passport, moving away from my family and job, or going to prison for tax evasion... ... how about we agree that I personally did not want the government to use my tax money to bomb civilians in Eurasia and I desperately would like to find a way to prevent those weapons from being launched. But I think we would have to replace something like 70% of our elected representatives to force that to happen
        squirrelicus 7y ago
        Can we agree that the militaries of the West try extraordinarily hard, especially by historical standards, to not harm civilians during wartime? Can we also agree that zero civilian casualties during war is at least adjacent to impossible? Can we also agree that a country unwilling to protect its people and interests with military action would be a much less secure country than the ones we have today? Indeed, that the threat of rapid, devastating response is the key reason why we are as close to world peace as we are today and have been for decades?
      - squirrelicus 7y ago
        I'm pretty sure that's not true. But maybe I'm wrong. To know the answer, we'll have to discover the monetary cost of doing so and calculate how long it might take to save up money, and what must be forgone, to acheive it.
        filleduchaos 7y ago
        Wait - so it's something you've never actually researched or considered (or thought about in any depth, if you think the only barrier is financial), but you're somehow pretty sure countries hand out citizenships willy-nilly? The only path to citizenship that's open to anybody is naturalization, and that requires you to already be a legal (often permanent) resident. While there are a few countries where you become eligible after two or three years - notably Canada - many require five, ten or even fifteen years. So before you even start the process, you have to deal with immigrating to your country of choice from your current country of citizenship/residence. And while that's not exactly the cheapest of undertakings[0], the real problem is that your application first of all generally needs to be sponsored by someone (typically strictly a relative or employer, so good luck if you don't have family in the country in question or don't work in a field that tends to hire across borders) and secondly is most often quite literally at the mercy of bored officials behind glass walls who have the power to deny you on a whim and owe you no explanation. If by some convening of application strength and sheer luck you do get a residence permit, you then get to have your freedom of movement curtailed for however many years[1] during which simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time can set you back to square zero[2] and you still get slapped by the effect of sanctions like these, as you're still a citizen of whatever country you came from. Or you could also just make some exorbitant "investment" (often hundreds of thousands of dollars' worth) and effectively straight-up buy citizenship. So yeah, the vast majority of people are rather powerless to do anything about their citizenship, especially when they don't have passports that let them travel anywhere on a whim (as tends to be the case for people in the sort of countries that one would want to escape citizenship of lol). 0: The cost of a passport, visa, plane ticket and rent deposit is easily $2000 plus depending on the part of the world (a friend of mine recently spent close to $4000 out of pocket relocating to Germany). 1: It's not enough to simply hold residency - there are often requirements for how much time you must have spent in the country in order to be eligible for naturalization, and leaving the country for an extended period of time will often itself jeopardise one's residency status. 2: In the US, for example, various misdemeanours - for instance drug possession - are grounds for deportation, after which you might as well forget about legally entering the country to talk of becoming a permanent resident again.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
rhizome 7y ago
Or you're traveling internationally and you're in a bar and someone goes "Oh, you're American? Think you're a badass like Trump? Where's your gun, tough guy?"
Mirioron 7y ago
If the people are the ones that are supposed to have power, then the people should also be responsible for what the state does.
dogma1138 7y ago
>If anyone ever dared to assert that I support US war mongering just because I live the US..... lord It's not the same, the majority of the population are ethnic Russians, a large number of them actively support what Russia did. There was a referendum, and countless polls, it doesn't excuse the annexation but reality isn't black and white. You need to be intentionally misleading to not acknowledge the fact the Russian presence in Crimea and in fact their actions are supported by a sufficiently large part of the Crimean population to make this situation very problematic. This isn't Russia occupying Belgium, the geopolitics behind this situation don't make anyone look good. Hence why I gave the example of Catalonia not only it's a good western analogy but it appears that Crimea has more pro-Russian support than what the separatist movements in Spain or other places in Europe like Italy have. However our current legal system does not allow individuals to simply say "i don't want to be part of your legal system any more" hence why these referendums are essentially illegal. And while we do need to face reality sometimes and make exceptions these have to be exception otherwise the "sovereign citizens" movement would actually become a reality since you can't simply put a cap on how many people want to break away from the existing legal system you enforce on them.

narrowingorbits 7y ago

With taxes, you do.

ConcernedCoder 7y ago
Yeah, instead you can show your solidarity against it by going to federal prison for tax evasion...
- geofft 7y ago
  They couldn't fit all of us into prisons, if we all refused to pay taxes.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- squirrelicus 7y ago
  Or you could choose to become a citizen of a country you support instead. I'm not saying "get out if you're not all in", I'm not trying to be dismissive. But your citizenship and temperament are accidents of your birth, and you have the power to rectify the former.
  - filleduchaos 7y ago
    > But your citizenship and temperament are accidents of your birth, and you have the power to rectify the former. This is an incredibly naive/somewhat condescending statement, considering that it is far beyond the reach of the vast majority of people.
    - quaquaqua1 7y ago
      Agreed, instead of giving up my passport, moving away from my family and job, or going to prison for tax evasion... ... how about we agree that I personally did not want the government to use my tax money to bomb civilians in Eurasia and I desperately would like to find a way to prevent those weapons from being launched. But I think we would have to replace something like 70% of our elected representatives to force that to happen
      - squirrelicus 7y ago
        Can we agree that the militaries of the West try extraordinarily hard, especially by historical standards, to not harm civilians during wartime? Can we also agree that zero civilian casualties during war is at least adjacent to impossible? Can we also agree that a country unwilling to protect its people and interests with military action would be a much less secure country than the ones we have today? Indeed, that the threat of rapid, devastating response is the key reason why we are as close to world peace as we are today and have been for decades?
    - squirrelicus 7y ago
      I'm pretty sure that's not true. But maybe I'm wrong. To know the answer, we'll have to discover the monetary cost of doing so and calculate how long it might take to save up money, and what must be forgone, to acheive it.
      - filleduchaos 7y ago
        Wait - so it's something you've never actually researched or considered (or thought about in any depth, if you think the only barrier is financial), but you're somehow pretty sure countries hand out citizenships willy-nilly? The only path to citizenship that's open to anybody is naturalization, and that requires you to already be a legal (often permanent) resident. While there are a few countries where you become eligible after two or three years - notably Canada - many require five, ten or even fifteen years. So before you even start the process, you have to deal with immigrating to your country of choice from your current country of citizenship/residence. And while that's not exactly the cheapest of undertakings[0], the real problem is that your application first of all generally needs to be sponsored by someone (typically strictly a relative or employer, so good luck if you don't have family in the country in question or don't work in a field that tends to hire across borders) and secondly is most often quite literally at the mercy of bored officials behind glass walls who have the power to deny you on a whim and owe you no explanation. If by some convening of application strength and sheer luck you do get a residence permit, you then get to have your freedom of movement curtailed for however many years[1] during which simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time can set you back to square zero[2] and you still get slapped by the effect of sanctions like these, as you're still a citizen of whatever country you came from. Or you could also just make some exorbitant "investment" (often hundreds of thousands of dollars' worth) and effectively straight-up buy citizenship. So yeah, the vast majority of people are rather powerless to do anything about their citizenship, especially when they don't have passports that let them travel anywhere on a whim (as tends to be the case for people in the sort of countries that one would want to escape citizenship of lol). 0: The cost of a passport, visa, plane ticket and rent deposit is easily $2000 plus depending on the part of the world (a friend of mine recently spent close to $4000 out of pocket relocating to Germany). 1: It's not enough to simply hold residency - there are often requirements for how much time you must have spent in the country in order to be eligible for naturalization, and leaving the country for an extended period of time will often itself jeopardise one's residency status. 2: In the US, for example, various misdemeanours - for instance drug possession - are grounds for deportation, after which you might as well forget about legally entering the country to talk of becoming a permanent resident again.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

rhizome 7y ago

Or you're traveling internationally and you're in a bar and someone goes "Oh, you're American? Think you're a badass like Trump? Where's your gun, tough guy?"

Mirioron 7y ago

If the people are the ones that are supposed to have power, then the people should also be responsible for what the state does.

dogma1138 7y ago

>If anyone ever dared to assert that I support US war mongering just because I live the US..... lord It's not the same, the majority of the population are ethnic Russians, a large number of them actively support what Russia did. There was a referendum, and countless polls, it doesn't excuse the annexation but reality isn't black and white. You need to be intentionally misleading to not acknowledge the fact the Russian presence in Crimea and in fact their actions are supported by a sufficiently large part of the Crimean population to make this situation very problematic. This isn't Russia occupying Belgium, the geopolitics behind this situation don't make anyone look good. Hence why I gave the example of Catalonia not only it's a good western analogy but it appears that Crimea has more pro-Russian support than what the separatist movements in Spain or other places in Europe like Italy have. However our current legal system does not allow individuals to simply say "i don't want to be part of your legal system any more" hence why these referendums are essentially illegal. And while we do need to face reality sometimes and make exceptions these have to be exception otherwise the "sovereign citizens" movement would actually become a reality since you can't simply put a cap on how many people want to break away from the existing legal system you enforce on them.