4 ms·

FYI: It's just "Ukraine", not "the Ukraine". "The Ukraine" referred to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in the Soviet Union.

by rcfox 7y ago

dvt 7y ago
Fixed -- had no idea, thanks for the heads-up!
microcolonel 7y ago
Would've been nice if we called it Ukrainia in English from then on. It would make sense with the conventions for transliterating cyrillic country names.
- Fins 7y ago
  How so? There's no "ia" there.
  - microcolonel 7y ago
    I put the i on the wrong side, then added it in one place but didn't remove it in the other.
shitgoose 7y ago
"The Ukraine" referred to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in the Soviet Union. no disrespect, but there is this coming from?!
- egorfine 7y ago
  Ukrainian society is ill and this is one of the recent inflammations that hurts. Being unable to fix roads or economy, they have directed their frustration towards symbolic things, fighting everyone who calls Kiev "Kiev" instead of "Kyiv", renaming streets, etc. Now they have decided that "the Ukraine" is somehow referencing Ukraine as a territory and not a state. God knows where any of this comes from, but any "patriotic" idea gets boosted immediately no matter how stupid. Source: am Ukrainian.
  - divan 7y ago
    This is false dilemma fallacy – there is no link between "unable to fix roads" and "s/Kiev/Kyiv/" renaming. "Kiev" is a transcription from Russian – which was an official language in USSR, but is not official in Ukraine. Renaming streets is also part of decommunisation process, which is common among post-Soviet countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decommunization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decommunization Also, calling society "ill" is offensive, and if your goal is to have a meaningful discussion, you'd rather avoid offending your fellow citizens (unless you identify yourself more as Russian, of course). Source: I'm also Ukrainian
    - shitgoose 7y ago
      listening to your conversation - good luck to both of you guys:)! keep spelling!
  - zzzcpan 7y ago
    > fighting everyone who calls Kiev "Kiev" instead of "Kyiv", renaming streets, etc. It's an organized effort, part of government propaganda, not an ill society. Society is so healthy, that it didn't trust the government at all and voted all those people out. Really, it doesn't get healthier than that.
    - shitgoose 7y ago
      changing one oligarh for another is hardly healthy (Poroh for Benya). Ukraine deserves better.
      - zzzcpan 7y ago
        Previous president of Ukraine was a literal power hungry oligarch, who engaged in war, war mongering, censorship, propaganda, fake comments trolling bots, policy washing through his international friends, fake-fighting of corruption to gain power over judges, ordered raids on opposing media and industries, switched politics to right-wing to ride the propaganda machine he tried to create, etc. New one is a freedom of speech supporting businessmen, not an oligarch, who found himself fighting him and the whole establishment through utopian/dystopian political tv shows over the last five years. And newly elected parliament has plenty of people who have no ties to the establishment or fought the last president too, like the head of the most active organization fighting against internet censorship (pretty successfully) who joined the new president's party.
- rcfox 7y ago
  > "After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukrainians probably decided that the article denigrated their country [by identifying it as a part of Russia] and abolished 'the' while speaking English, so now it is simply Ukraine. > "That's why the Ukraine suddenly lost its article in the last 20 years, it's a sort of linguistic independence in Europe, it's hugely symbolic." (Oksana Kyzyma of the Embassy of Ukraine in London is being quoted in the sections of the article that I'm quoting.) https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18233844 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18233844
DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
"The Ukraine" is the traditional way of referring to the country/region, going back centuries. Many languages, including Ukrainian itself, have traditionally referred to the Ukraine using similar grammatical constructs. The Ukrainian government requests that people stop putting "the" in front of the country's name, but it's difficult to force people to change the way they speak.
SpaceRaccoon 7y ago
> "The Ukraine" referred to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in the Soviet Union. This is misinformation. "The Ukraine" precedes the USSR. It comes from the fact that "Ukraine" is derived from "borderland". Hence, "the Ukraine" - "the borderland".

FYI: It's just "Ukraine", not "the Ukraine". "The Ukraine" referred to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in the Soviet Union.

by rcfox 7y ago

FYI: It's just "Ukraine", not "the Ukraine". "The Ukraine" referred to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in the Soviet Union.

dvt 7y ago

Fixed -- had no idea, thanks for the heads-up!

microcolonel 7y ago

Would've been nice if we called it Ukrainia in English from then on. It would make sense with the conventions for transliterating cyrillic country names.

Fins 7y ago
How so? There's no "ia" there.
- microcolonel 7y ago
  I put the i on the wrong side, then added it in one place but didn't remove it in the other.

shitgoose 7y ago

"The Ukraine" referred to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in the Soviet Union. no disrespect, but there is this coming from?!

egorfine 7y ago
Ukrainian society is ill and this is one of the recent inflammations that hurts. Being unable to fix roads or economy, they have directed their frustration towards symbolic things, fighting everyone who calls Kiev "Kiev" instead of "Kyiv", renaming streets, etc. Now they have decided that "the Ukraine" is somehow referencing Ukraine as a territory and not a state. God knows where any of this comes from, but any "patriotic" idea gets boosted immediately no matter how stupid. Source: am Ukrainian.
- divan 7y ago
  This is false dilemma fallacy – there is no link between "unable to fix roads" and "s/Kiev/Kyiv/" renaming. "Kiev" is a transcription from Russian – which was an official language in USSR, but is not official in Ukraine. Renaming streets is also part of decommunisation process, which is common among post-Soviet countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decommunization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decommunization Also, calling society "ill" is offensive, and if your goal is to have a meaningful discussion, you'd rather avoid offending your fellow citizens (unless you identify yourself more as Russian, of course). Source: I'm also Ukrainian
  - shitgoose 7y ago
    listening to your conversation - good luck to both of you guys:)! keep spelling!
- zzzcpan 7y ago
  > fighting everyone who calls Kiev "Kiev" instead of "Kyiv", renaming streets, etc. It's an organized effort, part of government propaganda, not an ill society. Society is so healthy, that it didn't trust the government at all and voted all those people out. Really, it doesn't get healthier than that.
  - shitgoose 7y ago
    changing one oligarh for another is hardly healthy (Poroh for Benya). Ukraine deserves better.
    - zzzcpan 7y ago
      Previous president of Ukraine was a literal power hungry oligarch, who engaged in war, war mongering, censorship, propaganda, fake comments trolling bots, policy washing through his international friends, fake-fighting of corruption to gain power over judges, ordered raids on opposing media and industries, switched politics to right-wing to ride the propaganda machine he tried to create, etc. New one is a freedom of speech supporting businessmen, not an oligarch, who found himself fighting him and the whole establishment through utopian/dystopian political tv shows over the last five years. And newly elected parliament has plenty of people who have no ties to the establishment or fought the last president too, like the head of the most active organization fighting against internet censorship (pretty successfully) who joined the new president's party.
rcfox 7y ago
> "After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukrainians probably decided that the article denigrated their country [by identifying it as a part of Russia] and abolished 'the' while speaking English, so now it is simply Ukraine. > "That's why the Ukraine suddenly lost its article in the last 20 years, it's a sort of linguistic independence in Europe, it's hugely symbolic." (Oksana Kyzyma of the Embassy of Ukraine in London is being quoted in the sections of the article that I'm quoting.) https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18233844 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18233844

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago

"The Ukraine" is the traditional way of referring to the country/region, going back centuries. Many languages, including Ukrainian itself, have traditionally referred to the Ukraine using similar grammatical constructs. The Ukrainian government requests that people stop putting "the" in front of the country's name, but it's difficult to force people to change the way they speak.

SpaceRaccoon 7y ago

> "The Ukraine" referred to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in the Soviet Union. This is misinformation. "The Ukraine" precedes the USSR. It comes from the fact that "Ukraine" is derived from "borderland". Hence, "the Ukraine" - "the borderland".