4 ms·

Does that make it better?

dvt 7y ago
No, it just makes it a geopolitical reality that you have to somehow punish Russia when it mobilizes ground forces and forcibly annexes pieces of land. Don't forget that Russian-backed insurgents literally shot a passenger plane out of the sky[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17
- option 7y ago
  this punishes people who live in Crimea
- baddox 7y ago
  Something tells me Russia is not particularly bothered by the inability of people in Crimea to use GitHub.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
    Of course. Nobody is particularly bothered by the loss of one company's services. It's the totality of the effect that you're looking for.
- viraptor 7y ago
  I agree with the idea, but wonder if that really hurts the right people. People in Crimea get both annexed and punished on global market. Russia gets access to what it wanted and gets no real punishment.
- option 7y ago
  Have you actually been to Crimea? Because I had and still have lots of relatives there (I am originally from Ukraine). I have zero doubt that overwhelming majority of people there (easily over 70%) want to be with Russia instead of Ukraine
  - my_first_acct 7y ago
    I think your numbers are probably correct. I don't happen to know another number: how many people in Chechnya would rather be independent than part of Russia. But it doesn't matter; the Russian government is very selective about how it applies the "right to self-determination". The Russian government is likewise selective in its interpretation of the Budapest agreement (1994) [1], in which Russia guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity in return for Ukraine giving up nuclear weapons. Edit: I incorrectly wrote "Bucharest agreement"; fixed it (thanks jotm) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit...
    - jotm 7y ago
      Bucharest and Budapest are two different cities :)
    - option 7y ago
      I agree with what you said. But this means that US/West sanctions people for their democratic choice. We should instead sanction people associated with Russia’s totalitarian government.
      - my_first_acct 7y ago
        The US has in fact sanctioned Russian officials associated with the annexation of Crimea. [1] You might also spare some sympathy for those residents of Crimea who did not wish to join the Russian Federation, for example, many Crimean Tatars. Not only have they suffered the loss of access to github, they also have to contend with a campaign of political repression. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_sanctioned_during_the_Ukrainian_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_sanctioned_duri... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Crimea#Crimean_Tatars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Crimea#Crimean_Tat...
        SpaceRaccoon 7y ago
        So whose will should trump the other? The majority or the minority? Perhaps you should spare some sympathy for the majority of the Crimean populace who wished to rejoin Russia- I notice you have none.
- dn3 7y ago
  I don't mean this to sound aggressive, but would you agree then with sanctioning the U.S. after its actual military shot down an Iranian passenger plane, inside Iranian waters [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
  - dvt 7y ago
    Someone always brings up 655. Say what you will, the US government at least paid out to the victims (although never officially apologized). While Russia denies all involvement to this day and lawsuits are still ongoing.
    - Hidios 7y ago
      Saying Russia did it too and they were much worse about it is not a valid defense of anything.
      - dvt 7y ago
        It wasn’t a defense. Two terrible things happened (let’s assume both accidental). The US admitted Iran-655 was an “accident that resulted in a loss of life” and paid out ~$200k per victim. Russia pretends like MH-17 never happened. Who do you think has more of a moral high ground?
        chinhodado 7y ago
        Not defending Russia, just saying the circumstances are a bit different. Iran-655 was downed by a US warship - clear from the outset and no space for argument, while MH-17 was downed by (most probably) Russian separatists with a mobile missiles system, which allows for a lot of deniability, and since they had the chance to deny it they went with it. The US didn't even have that luxury.
    - dn3 7y ago
      Ignoring your initial tone, I see what you're saying, and agree these aren't identical cases. Though it should be emphasized they only payed out to the victims because Iran brought it to the international courts and they wanted to settle. They never, as you said, apologized, or even thought they had any legal obligation to the victims. Feels like your splitting hairs with "Russia denies involvement" as being dramatically different -- both seem like terrible events that neither super power really feels responsible for despite being the ones who put those weapons where they were without legitimacy.
- jwieczorek 7y ago
  After the Ukrainian air traffic control spent weeks bringing the same flight closer and closer to the war zone, even though a ban on air traffic over that territory should have been put there immediately. No one is questioning the Ukrainian side how come they've "lost" and have not put forward before the Dutch Safety Board the primary radar recordings of the Dnepropetrovsk area from that period. The Ukrainian government, and the U.S., at that very moment needed something like this to happen to get the Western European governments to put their stake in that war and the Western European societies to approve it. They're partially responsible for this crash and in that regard your description of this event is highly misguiding.

dvt 7y ago

No, it just makes it a geopolitical reality that you have to somehow punish Russia when it mobilizes ground forces and forcibly annexes pieces of land. Don't forget that Russian-backed insurgents literally shot a passenger plane out of the sky[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17

option 7y ago
this punishes people who live in Crimea
baddox 7y ago
Something tells me Russia is not particularly bothered by the inability of people in Crimea to use GitHub.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
  Of course. Nobody is particularly bothered by the loss of one company's services. It's the totality of the effect that you're looking for.
viraptor 7y ago
I agree with the idea, but wonder if that really hurts the right people. People in Crimea get both annexed and punished on global market. Russia gets access to what it wanted and gets no real punishment.
option 7y ago
Have you actually been to Crimea? Because I had and still have lots of relatives there (I am originally from Ukraine). I have zero doubt that overwhelming majority of people there (easily over 70%) want to be with Russia instead of Ukraine
- my_first_acct 7y ago
  I think your numbers are probably correct. I don't happen to know another number: how many people in Chechnya would rather be independent than part of Russia. But it doesn't matter; the Russian government is very selective about how it applies the "right to self-determination". The Russian government is likewise selective in its interpretation of the Budapest agreement (1994) [1], in which Russia guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity in return for Ukraine giving up nuclear weapons. Edit: I incorrectly wrote "Bucharest agreement"; fixed it (thanks jotm) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit...
  - jotm 7y ago
    Bucharest and Budapest are two different cities :)
  - option 7y ago
    I agree with what you said. But this means that US/West sanctions people for their democratic choice. We should instead sanction people associated with Russia’s totalitarian government.
    - my_first_acct 7y ago
      The US has in fact sanctioned Russian officials associated with the annexation of Crimea. [1] You might also spare some sympathy for those residents of Crimea who did not wish to join the Russian Federation, for example, many Crimean Tatars. Not only have they suffered the loss of access to github, they also have to contend with a campaign of political repression. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_sanctioned_during_the_Ukrainian_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_sanctioned_duri... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Crimea#Crimean_Tatars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Crimea#Crimean_Tat...
      - SpaceRaccoon 7y ago
        So whose will should trump the other? The majority or the minority? Perhaps you should spare some sympathy for the majority of the Crimean populace who wished to rejoin Russia- I notice you have none.
dn3 7y ago
I don't mean this to sound aggressive, but would you agree then with sanctioning the U.S. after its actual military shot down an Iranian passenger plane, inside Iranian waters [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
- dvt 7y ago
  Someone always brings up 655. Say what you will, the US government at least paid out to the victims (although never officially apologized). While Russia denies all involvement to this day and lawsuits are still ongoing.
  - Hidios 7y ago
    Saying Russia did it too and they were much worse about it is not a valid defense of anything.
    - dvt 7y ago
      It wasn’t a defense. Two terrible things happened (let’s assume both accidental). The US admitted Iran-655 was an “accident that resulted in a loss of life” and paid out ~$200k per victim. Russia pretends like MH-17 never happened. Who do you think has more of a moral high ground?
      - chinhodado 7y ago
        Not defending Russia, just saying the circumstances are a bit different. Iran-655 was downed by a US warship - clear from the outset and no space for argument, while MH-17 was downed by (most probably) Russian separatists with a mobile missiles system, which allows for a lot of deniability, and since they had the chance to deny it they went with it. The US didn't even have that luxury.
  - dn3 7y ago
    Ignoring your initial tone, I see what you're saying, and agree these aren't identical cases. Though it should be emphasized they only payed out to the victims because Iran brought it to the international courts and they wanted to settle. They never, as you said, apologized, or even thought they had any legal obligation to the victims. Feels like your splitting hairs with "Russia denies involvement" as being dramatically different -- both seem like terrible events that neither super power really feels responsible for despite being the ones who put those weapons where they were without legitimacy.
jwieczorek 7y ago
After the Ukrainian air traffic control spent weeks bringing the same flight closer and closer to the war zone, even though a ban on air traffic over that territory should have been put there immediately. No one is questioning the Ukrainian side how come they've "lost" and have not put forward before the Dutch Safety Board the primary radar recordings of the Dnepropetrovsk area from that period. The Ukrainian government, and the U.S., at that very moment needed something like this to happen to get the Western European governments to put their stake in that war and the Western European societies to approve it. They're partially responsible for this crash and in that regard your description of this event is highly misguiding.