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An IC can definitely have and maintain more control than managers, they just need to produce visible value to the company. I've seen multiple ICs with more pow

An IC can definitely have and maintain more control than managers, they just need to produce visible value to the company. I've seen multiple ICs with more power than their direct manager. They are basically immune to being fired because higher-level leaders understand their value and respect their track record.

nugget 7y ago
Same here. Not only are they immune to being fired, they can more or less switch teams whenever they want.
lambdasquirrel 7y ago
Were those higher-level leaders managers? I mean I agree with your exact statement, but in my direct experience, the higher-level leaders tend to be less and less engineers. Unless there is some power of the purse-strings, the two-tracks thing is always going to be biased in favor of the managers.
- filoleg 7y ago
  That's the beauty of working in a tech company compared to a non-tech company. Every single manager in my org is a former engineer. Every single manager above them is a former engineer. Heavy majority of directors in the org are former engineers.
  - thequailman 7y ago
    That's not necessarily a good thing. Sometimes ex-engineer managers are the worst kind of manager due to their own misconceptions or arrogance.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - sq_ 7y ago
    I feel like that's really gonna depend on what part of the tech sector you're working in. In the world of early and middle stage startups, you're probably right. However, in massive tech companies or more legacy-type tech companies, it seems like you're a lot more likely to find managers who are trained as managers and not engineers (MBAs, etc.)
    - filoleg 7y ago
      I agree with you in general. However, my specific experience with this comes from working at one of those massive tech companies. And there are definitely orgs within the company that fall under the "MBA-types-running-the-show" umbrella, but, I think, I just got very lucky with my org.
      - sq_ 7y ago
        Yeah, the experience probably varies a ton across the industry and even within orgs. I'm sure most people around here who've been in tech for a while can tell stories about both types of company.
- Haga 7y ago
  Because leader set up the evaluation process, they tend to set those up to easier gamble able metrics.
rolltiide 7y ago
> they just need to produce visible value to the company Many specialists don't get this opportunity and require certain character traits to go out of their way to make it known. If they maintain a key product but don't need to interface with group of people often, then they get ignored for "employee of the month" and other accolades that would translate into more clout
specialist 7y ago
Until the company is bought.
groundCode 7y ago
I think they tend to be anomalies. Mostly ICs don’t have as much power/authority/autonomy as people in managerial positions.
vinceguidry 7y ago
At my last company, I went through three managers in the 3 years I was there. The last guy in there, I was comfortable enough in my position to make a statement. At the time, I was getting into the office around 10 and leaving at 3 or 4, basically whenever I felt like it. The first few days, I stayed until a couple minutes after he left, to let him know I supported him. Then one day, I walked out with him. He looked at me and said, "but you got in at 10." I looked right back at him and said, "I know. I stayed late the last few days in case you needed me." Then it was back to old habits. He was going to need all the help he could get to manage the political situation. In the end he couldn't cut the knot, he left not long after I did.
- orf 7y ago
  Something about this comment really unsettles me. I can’t tell if it’s thinking that what was a “statement”, if it’s the underlying attempt at some lame kind of power play on a new member of your team or if it’s something else entirely.
  - Cthulhu_ 7y ago
    What I'm reading in it is that the poster is a lot more comfortable in their position than the manager, knowing the manager is under a lot more stress and pressure than the poster themselves. After you've seen a few managers start and leave you kinda get the picture.
    - vinceguidry 7y ago
      More or less. It wasn't intended to be malicious. I made it known I was there to support him in his Herculean task of moving the needle with his department with this wholly intransigent political environment. But I'd already spent some 2 1/2 years building up goodwill and clout in the company and there wasn't going to be any bowing and scraping. Any ideas he had were welcomed but at the end of the day, they were going to throw it all out anyway. I was hoping they'd let me build the new platform, but they picked a consulting company to build them a Magento solution. To recognize my efforts, I got like a year and a half of half-salary to get on the phone if they ever needed me. My next role paid 33% more.
Allower 7y ago
Only in an immature company, once the company grows large enough, and key leadership leaves, managers take over and inefficiency becomes rampant

nugget 7y ago

Same here. Not only are they immune to being fired, they can more or less switch teams whenever they want.

lambdasquirrel 7y ago

Were those higher-level leaders managers? I mean I agree with your exact statement, but in my direct experience, the higher-level leaders tend to be less and less engineers. Unless there is some power of the purse-strings, the two-tracks thing is always going to be biased in favor of the managers.

filoleg 7y ago
That's the beauty of working in a tech company compared to a non-tech company. Every single manager in my org is a former engineer. Every single manager above them is a former engineer. Heavy majority of directors in the org are former engineers.
- thequailman 7y ago
  That's not necessarily a good thing. Sometimes ex-engineer managers are the worst kind of manager due to their own misconceptions or arrogance.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- sq_ 7y ago
  I feel like that's really gonna depend on what part of the tech sector you're working in. In the world of early and middle stage startups, you're probably right. However, in massive tech companies or more legacy-type tech companies, it seems like you're a lot more likely to find managers who are trained as managers and not engineers (MBAs, etc.)
  - filoleg 7y ago
    I agree with you in general. However, my specific experience with this comes from working at one of those massive tech companies. And there are definitely orgs within the company that fall under the "MBA-types-running-the-show" umbrella, but, I think, I just got very lucky with my org.
    - sq_ 7y ago
      Yeah, the experience probably varies a ton across the industry and even within orgs. I'm sure most people around here who've been in tech for a while can tell stories about both types of company.
Haga 7y ago
Because leader set up the evaluation process, they tend to set those up to easier gamble able metrics.

rolltiide 7y ago

> they just need to produce visible value to the company Many specialists don't get this opportunity and require certain character traits to go out of their way to make it known. If they maintain a key product but don't need to interface with group of people often, then they get ignored for "employee of the month" and other accolades that would translate into more clout

specialist 7y ago

Until the company is bought.

groundCode 7y ago

I think they tend to be anomalies. Mostly ICs don’t have as much power/authority/autonomy as people in managerial positions.

vinceguidry 7y ago

At my last company, I went through three managers in the 3 years I was there. The last guy in there, I was comfortable enough in my position to make a statement. At the time, I was getting into the office around 10 and leaving at 3 or 4, basically whenever I felt like it. The first few days, I stayed until a couple minutes after he left, to let him know I supported him. Then one day, I walked out with him. He looked at me and said, "but you got in at 10." I looked right back at him and said, "I know. I stayed late the last few days in case you needed me." Then it was back to old habits. He was going to need all the help he could get to manage the political situation. In the end he couldn't cut the knot, he left not long after I did.

orf 7y ago
Something about this comment really unsettles me. I can’t tell if it’s thinking that what was a “statement”, if it’s the underlying attempt at some lame kind of power play on a new member of your team or if it’s something else entirely.
- Cthulhu_ 7y ago
  What I'm reading in it is that the poster is a lot more comfortable in their position than the manager, knowing the manager is under a lot more stress and pressure than the poster themselves. After you've seen a few managers start and leave you kinda get the picture.
  - vinceguidry 7y ago
    More or less. It wasn't intended to be malicious. I made it known I was there to support him in his Herculean task of moving the needle with his department with this wholly intransigent political environment. But I'd already spent some 2 1/2 years building up goodwill and clout in the company and there wasn't going to be any bowing and scraping. Any ideas he had were welcomed but at the end of the day, they were going to throw it all out anyway. I was hoping they'd let me build the new platform, but they picked a consulting company to build them a Magento solution. To recognize my efforts, I got like a year and a half of half-salary to get on the phone if they ever needed me. My next role paid 33% more.

Allower 7y ago

Only in an immature company, once the company grows large enough, and key leadership leaves, managers take over and inefficiency becomes rampant