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You can easily get through modern life without taking out a loan from the financial system. I'm 41 years old and I've never had a home or car loan. I have credi

by harryh 7y ago

You can easily get through modern life without taking out a loan from the financial system. I'm 41 years old and I've never had a home or car loan. I have credit cards, but I easily could have gotten by using debit cards instead.

soulofmischief 7y ago
So your financial history is being tracked and scrutinized. At 41, you might be able to live and die without this being a big problem. In my 20s, I worry about my ability to secure healthcare and other such necessities in my later life based on a social credit score which includes financial credit history I never opted into. Just getting on a lease is enough for a credit pull. It's unavoidable.
- harryh 7y ago
  It's easy to sign a lease with no credit history. At most they'll just ask for a bigger security deposit.
  - hestipod 7y ago
    You are ignoring the fact that not everyone's circumstances and opportunities are the same. You keep saying "easy" as if its an objective fact. Saying "I did this thing with these limits so anyone can" is dishonest and the implication meant by that is hostile to others.
    - harryh 7y ago
      Are you trying to say "not everyone has the cash on hand to put down a bigger security deposit?" If that's what you are trying to say, just say it. If that's not what you are trying to say then I don't understand your comment.
      - hestipod 7y ago
        I am saying that amongst many other things which are self evident. Not everyone has the situation and finances you do. Not everyone has the same buying markets and opportunities you do. Not everyone can exist within their social, family, and work situations with your "truths" and "rules". One can exist without using electricity...doesn't make it comfortable or practical AND it's not an argument for the idea of entering into a third party holding and selling and not securing your info in order to get it. I don't really understand why you are being defensive of bad practices and policies with the "nobody makes you sign up" argument. I never understand why people defend these things and blame the victims of them.
        harryh 7y ago
        many other things which are self evident. I'm not being defensive. I just honestly do not understand what point you are trying to make. I think that the things that you think are self evident are not self evident to me. Perhaps that is my failing. shrug
  - ticmasta 7y ago
    This is just false. Lots of real estate organizations require a credit pull as part of your application. You aren't renting from the owner/landlord but from the property manager; there's no notion of just "pay a bigger deposit to make up for your lack of credit history". It's also pretty much impossible to get through modern society without a credit card if you want to do anything crazy like, rent a car or reserve a hotel room.
    - harryh 7y ago
      That has not been my experience or the experience of many people that I know. Property managers care about risk. The risk of someone with low/no credit can almost always be mitigated with cash. I discuss issues with renting cars and hotel rooms in sibling threads.
      - soulofmischief 7y ago
        This may be true, but it's out-of-band. We need frameworks which ensure a level playing field, not tricks and loopholes which only allow the most cunning or fortunate of those with little credit to succeed in life.
    - tptacek 7y ago
      This has not been my experience, renting in Chicago, Ann Arbor, and San Francisco (around 2001).
      - astura 7y ago
        2001, sure. It's no longer 2001, we live in the era of big data now.
        tptacek 7y ago
        That's silly. Credit scores were as easy to obtain in 2001 as they are now.
  - astura 7y ago
    15-20 years ago, yes, absolutely. Maybe even 10. Now, it's nearly impossible unless you want a slumlord. Maximum security deposits are set by the state. In my state it's illegal to require more than two months rent as a security deposit. Security deposit is defined by statute, you can't just call it "rent prepayment."
    - harryh 7y ago
      So everyone with bad or no credit is locked out of the rental market? That....doesn't make a lot of sense. Where are they living?
      - astura 7y ago
        With friends/family, informal roommate arrangement, or renting substandard housing from slumlords. Either that or they have a cosigner.
        harryh 7y ago
        Based on everything I have read, as well as my own personal experience, I think you are exaggerating the seriousness of the situation. Do you have any evidence of this being the case?
        astura 7y ago
        My sister is currently renting a moldy basement (not a legal apartment) because of her poor credit. She's got two babies, she'd prefer better accommodations but that's all she could find with her credit. No evictions but several judgements against her.
        tptacek 7y ago
        This is pretty clearly not the case. I rented in relatively hot markets --- there was actual bidding for the SOMA loft we got back around 2000! --- and I had bad credit (put differently: when I was renting, I would have had better credit had I no contact with the consumer credit system whatsoever), and my credit score never once kept me from getting a lease, or even changed the terms of a lease.
  - soulofmischief 7y ago
    I've been denied tons of every day things because of no credit history. I can't even get a credit card.
  - stanmancan 7y ago
    Everything is easier when you have money in the bank. Unfortunately that's not the case for everyone.
cowpig 7y ago
Well, if it worked out for you I guess that settles the debate! Wait, I think it's _disproof_ that relies on one _counter_ example. I guess it's easy to get confused.
- harryh 7y ago
  It's easy for anyone. Credit cards aren't an essential service necessary for modern life.
  - fortran77 7y ago
    Renting a car; renting a hotel room, being able to travel easily and spend money in a foreign country.
    - harryh 7y ago
      Yes, some of those things (not the hotel room though, a debit card will do just fine for that) become more complicated without a credit card. But that is because you are, essentially, asking someone to loan you money. As soon as you start doing that it's reasonable for them to want to participate in a system that helps them understand how risky you are. Plus, all that being said, you can still do all those things without a credit card. It'll just be somewhat more complicated.
  - ticmasta 7y ago
    >> you can still do all those things without a credit card. It'll just be somewhat more complicated. You certainly can't show up at a hotel and check in without a credit card at any hotel I'd consider stay at You also can't rent a car from a major carrier without someone's credit card securing it
    - harryh 7y ago
      I have personally paid for hotel rooms at incredibly popular major hotel chains using a debit card. You can also definitely rent a car some some of the major carriers without a credit card. See: https://www.bankrate.com/personal-finance/smart-money/can-you-rent-a-car-with-a-debit-card/ https://www.bankrate.com/personal-finance/smart-money/can-yo... Definitely not all locations all the time (see: "somewhat more complicated").

by harryh 7y ago

soulofmischief 7y ago

So your financial history is being tracked and scrutinized. At 41, you might be able to live and die without this being a big problem. In my 20s, I worry about my ability to secure healthcare and other such necessities in my later life based on a social credit score which includes financial credit history I never opted into. Just getting on a lease is enough for a credit pull. It's unavoidable.

harryh 7y ago
It's easy to sign a lease with no credit history. At most they'll just ask for a bigger security deposit.
- hestipod 7y ago
  You are ignoring the fact that not everyone's circumstances and opportunities are the same. You keep saying "easy" as if its an objective fact. Saying "I did this thing with these limits so anyone can" is dishonest and the implication meant by that is hostile to others.
  - harryh 7y ago
    Are you trying to say "not everyone has the cash on hand to put down a bigger security deposit?" If that's what you are trying to say, just say it. If that's not what you are trying to say then I don't understand your comment.
    - hestipod 7y ago
      I am saying that amongst many other things which are self evident. Not everyone has the situation and finances you do. Not everyone has the same buying markets and opportunities you do. Not everyone can exist within their social, family, and work situations with your "truths" and "rules". One can exist without using electricity...doesn't make it comfortable or practical AND it's not an argument for the idea of entering into a third party holding and selling and not securing your info in order to get it. I don't really understand why you are being defensive of bad practices and policies with the "nobody makes you sign up" argument. I never understand why people defend these things and blame the victims of them.
      - harryh 7y ago
        many other things which are self evident. I'm not being defensive. I just honestly do not understand what point you are trying to make. I think that the things that you think are self evident are not self evident to me. Perhaps that is my failing. shrug
- ticmasta 7y ago
  This is just false. Lots of real estate organizations require a credit pull as part of your application. You aren't renting from the owner/landlord but from the property manager; there's no notion of just "pay a bigger deposit to make up for your lack of credit history". It's also pretty much impossible to get through modern society without a credit card if you want to do anything crazy like, rent a car or reserve a hotel room.
  - harryh 7y ago
    That has not been my experience or the experience of many people that I know. Property managers care about risk. The risk of someone with low/no credit can almost always be mitigated with cash. I discuss issues with renting cars and hotel rooms in sibling threads.
    - soulofmischief 7y ago
      This may be true, but it's out-of-band. We need frameworks which ensure a level playing field, not tricks and loopholes which only allow the most cunning or fortunate of those with little credit to succeed in life.
  - tptacek 7y ago
    This has not been my experience, renting in Chicago, Ann Arbor, and San Francisco (around 2001).
    - astura 7y ago
      2001, sure. It's no longer 2001, we live in the era of big data now.
      - tptacek 7y ago
        That's silly. Credit scores were as easy to obtain in 2001 as they are now.
- astura 7y ago
  15-20 years ago, yes, absolutely. Maybe even 10. Now, it's nearly impossible unless you want a slumlord. Maximum security deposits are set by the state. In my state it's illegal to require more than two months rent as a security deposit. Security deposit is defined by statute, you can't just call it "rent prepayment."
  - harryh 7y ago
    So everyone with bad or no credit is locked out of the rental market? That....doesn't make a lot of sense. Where are they living?
    - astura 7y ago
      With friends/family, informal roommate arrangement, or renting substandard housing from slumlords. Either that or they have a cosigner.
      - harryh 7y ago
        Based on everything I have read, as well as my own personal experience, I think you are exaggerating the seriousness of the situation. Do you have any evidence of this being the case?
        astura 7y ago
        My sister is currently renting a moldy basement (not a legal apartment) because of her poor credit. She's got two babies, she'd prefer better accommodations but that's all she could find with her credit. No evictions but several judgements against her.
      - tptacek 7y ago
        This is pretty clearly not the case. I rented in relatively hot markets --- there was actual bidding for the SOMA loft we got back around 2000! --- and I had bad credit (put differently: when I was renting, I would have had better credit had I no contact with the consumer credit system whatsoever), and my credit score never once kept me from getting a lease, or even changed the terms of a lease.
- soulofmischief 7y ago
  I've been denied tons of every day things because of no credit history. I can't even get a credit card.
- stanmancan 7y ago
  Everything is easier when you have money in the bank. Unfortunately that's not the case for everyone.

cowpig 7y ago

Well, if it worked out for you I guess that settles the debate! Wait, I think it's _disproof_ that relies on one _counter_ example. I guess it's easy to get confused.

harryh 7y ago
It's easy for anyone. Credit cards aren't an essential service necessary for modern life.
- fortran77 7y ago
  Renting a car; renting a hotel room, being able to travel easily and spend money in a foreign country.
  - harryh 7y ago
    Yes, some of those things (not the hotel room though, a debit card will do just fine for that) become more complicated without a credit card. But that is because you are, essentially, asking someone to loan you money. As soon as you start doing that it's reasonable for them to want to participate in a system that helps them understand how risky you are. Plus, all that being said, you can still do all those things without a credit card. It'll just be somewhat more complicated.
- ticmasta 7y ago
  >> you can still do all those things without a credit card. It'll just be somewhat more complicated. You certainly can't show up at a hotel and check in without a credit card at any hotel I'd consider stay at You also can't rent a car from a major carrier without someone's credit card securing it
  - harryh 7y ago
    I have personally paid for hotel rooms at incredibly popular major hotel chains using a debit card. You can also definitely rent a car some some of the major carriers without a credit card. See: https://www.bankrate.com/personal-finance/smart-money/can-you-rent-a-car-with-a-debit-card/ https://www.bankrate.com/personal-finance/smart-money/can-yo... Definitely not all locations all the time (see: "somewhat more complicated").