7 ms·
I think the important part of the parent post is "It's a stretch to call something opt-in when it's unavoidable in modern life."
by stanmancan 7y ago
I think the important part of the parent post is
"It's a stretch to call something opt-in when it's unavoidable in modern life."
- harryh 7y agoYou can easily get through modern life without taking out a loan from the financial system. I'm 41 years old and I've never had a home or car loan. I have credit cards, but I easily could have gotten by using debit cards instead.
- soulofmischief 7y agoSo your financial history is being tracked and scrutinized. At 41, you might be able to live and die without this being a big problem. In my 20s, I worry about my ability to secure healthcare and other such necessities in my later life based on a social credit score which includes financial credit history I never opted into. Just getting on a lease is enough for a credit pull. It's unavoidable.
- harryh 7y agoIt's easy to sign a lease with no credit history. At most they'll just ask for a bigger security deposit.
- hestipod 7y agoYou are ignoring the fact that not everyone's circumstances and opportunities are the same. You keep saying "easy" as if its an objective fact. Saying "I did this thing with these limits so anyone can" is dishonest and the implication meant by that is hostile to others.
- harryh 7y agoAre you trying to say "not everyone has the cash on hand to put down a bigger security deposit?" If that's what you are trying to say, just say it. If that's not what you are trying to say then I don't understand your comment.
- hestipod 7y agoI am saying that amongst many other things which are self evident. Not everyone has the situation and finances you do. Not everyone has the same buying markets and opportunities you do. Not everyone can exist within their social, family, and work situations with your "truths" and "rules". One can exist without using electricity...doesn't make it comfortable or practical AND it's not an argument for the idea of entering into a third party holding and selling and not securing your info in order to get it. I don't really understand why you are being defensive of bad practices and policies with the "nobody makes you sign up" argument. I never understand why people defend these things and blame the victims of them.
- harryh 7y agomany other things which are self evident. I'm not being defensive. I just honestly do not understand what point you are trying to make. I think that the things that you think are self evident are not self evident to me. Perhaps that is my failing. shrug
- ticmasta 7y agoThis is just false. Lots of real estate organizations require a credit pull as part of your application. You aren't renting from the owner/landlord but from the property manager; there's no notion of just "pay a bigger deposit to make up for your lack of credit history". It's also pretty much impossible to get through modern society without a credit card if you want to do anything crazy like, rent a car or reserve a hotel room.
- harryh 7y agoThat has not been my experience or the experience of many people that I know. Property managers care about risk. The risk of someone with low/no credit can almost always be mitigated with cash. I discuss issues with renting cars and hotel rooms in sibling threads.
- soulofmischief 7y agoThis may be true, but it's out-of-band. We need frameworks which ensure a level playing field, not tricks and loopholes which only allow the most cunning or fortunate of those with little credit to succeed in life.
- tptacek 7y agoThis has not been my experience, renting in Chicago, Ann Arbor, and San Francisco (around 2001).
- astura 7y ago15-20 years ago, yes, absolutely. Maybe even 10. Now, it's nearly impossible unless you want a slumlord. Maximum security deposits are set by the state. In my state it's illegal to require more than two months rent as a security deposit. Security deposit is defined by statute, you can't just call it "rent prepayment."
- harryh 7y agoSo everyone with bad or no credit is locked out of the rental market? That....doesn't make a lot of sense. Where are they living?
- astura 7y agoWith friends/family, informal roommate arrangement, or renting substandard housing from slumlords. Either that or they have a cosigner.
- harryh 7y agoBased on everything I have read, as well as my own personal experience, I think you are exaggerating the seriousness of the situation. Do you have any evidence of this being the case?
- astura 7y agoMy sister is currently renting a moldy basement (not a legal apartment) because of her poor credit. She's got two babies, she'd prefer better accommodations but that's all she could find with her credit. No evictions but several judgements against her.
- tptacek 7y agoThis is pretty clearly not the case. I rented in relatively hot markets --- there was actual bidding for the SOMA loft we got back around 2000! --- and I had bad credit (put differently: when I was renting, I would have had better credit had I no contact with the consumer credit system whatsoever), and my credit score never once kept me from getting a lease, or even changed the terms of a lease.
- soulofmischief 7y agoI've been denied tons of every day things because of no credit history. I can't even get a credit card.
- stanmancan 7y agoEverything is easier when you have money in the bank. Unfortunately that's not the case for everyone.
- cowpig 7y agoWell, if it worked out for you I guess that settles the debate! Wait, I think it's _disproof_ that relies on one _counter_ example. I guess it's easy to get confused.
- harryh 7y agoIt's easy for anyone. Credit cards aren't an essential service necessary for modern life.
- fortran77 7y agoRenting a car; renting a hotel room, being able to travel easily and spend money in a foreign country.
- harryh 7y agoYes, some of those things (not the hotel room though, a debit card will do just fine for that) become more complicated without a credit card. But that is because you are, essentially, asking someone to loan you money. As soon as you start doing that it's reasonable for them to want to participate in a system that helps them understand how risky you are. Plus, all that being said, you can still do all those things without a credit card. It'll just be somewhat more complicated.
- ticmasta 7y ago>> you can still do all those things without a credit card. It'll just be somewhat more complicated. You certainly can't show up at a hotel and check in without a credit card at any hotel I'd consider stay at You also can't rent a car from a major carrier without someone's credit card securing it
- harryh 7y agoI have personally paid for hotel rooms at incredibly popular major hotel chains using a debit card. You can also definitely rent a car some some of the major carriers without a credit card. See: https://www.bankrate.com/personal-finance/smart-money/can-you-rent-a-car-with-a-debit-card/ https://www.bankrate.com/personal-finance/smart-money/can-yo... Definitely not all locations all the time (see: "somewhat more complicated").
- tptacek 7y agoCredit cards --- bona fide, revolving-credit credit cards --- are so completely avoidable in modern life that I'm a little mystified as to why people get them at all. I couldn't for most of my adult life (weak credit score) and feel like I've dodged a bullet. I have a (secured) card with a low limit now, just to rent cars, but it's gotten a lot easier to rent cars with debit cards now, too. Heading off a routine objection to this observation: I've had a family with kids since I was 22, and spent most of the years prior to the Matasano acquisition living, if not paycheck-to-paycheck, at least pretty close to it. I'll add: I don't know what my credit score is now --- it's probably better than it was, since I've had that dumb car-renting card for 6+ years --- but, knowing that my credit was bad enough that I couldn't get a non-secured card, including from my own bank after the wires for the Matasano acquisition cleared, and knowing that I had at the time a house and a car and all that stuff, and really no trouble ever getting a lease for any place I could afford the rent for, I find myself wondering a lot how much credit scores actually matter. If I'd thought that when I was 22, I'd say, "welp, I just don't have enough life experience to know". But I'm 42 now, and I have a bit of a hard time projecting to a point where I can see a clear reason to give a shit what number Equifax generates for me. Like, maybe I'll care a lot when I'm 62? I kind of doubt it, though.
- detcader 7y agoI feel similarly mystified sometimes as I've never needed one. When my mom mentions paying off a CC bill, I think "why not just use debit?" Maybe she'll have to delay purchases or occasionally miss out on something, but it ends up being the same money. There are also people who are below the income line of paycheck-to-paycheck, people with addictions, people who have jobs or lives with risk of injury and thus medical bills or unpaid leave for recovery, people who have a big family with needs they have to pay or travel for... and I feel people can use CCs because rich people culture pressures them to cling to things and the idea of being "successful" to attract peers and love interests... but that's just my subjective analysis.
- stanmancan 7y agoWithout a credit card, how do you buy anything online, or sign up for any SAAS? (the ones that don't accept Paypal, which is most). Using pre-paid Visa cards are possible sometimes (but not always accepted) but are also a hassle to manage as a primary payment method. Booking travel online? All credit cards. Renting a hotel or car can be next to impossible without a credit card to put down. Once I had to pay a $500 deposit to stay in a hotel for 1 night because I didn't have a credit card they could put on file.