6 ms·

That's conflating the actions of trolls with people that were critical of activists. Those are not at all the same thing. The former is NOT ok, the latter is ok

by Reedx 7y ago

That's conflating the actions of trolls with people that were critical of activists. Those are not at all the same thing. The former is NOT ok, the latter is ok and should result in healthy debate. But because Twitter doesn't like nuance, those get collapsed into a single, simple and most outrage-inducing format. A black & white hero/villain narrative. Which also avoids having to deal with any critiques, regardless of validity.

minimaxir 7y ago
That ambiguity was a deliberate strategy of Gamergate (and still is a deliberate strategy even today of those with similar disposition).
- brokenkebab 7y ago
  Do you realize you are employing typical defence of any conspiracy theory when facing the fact that an alleged conspiracy doesn't look consistent to be real? And I mean absolutely literally. That exact statement I heard from people who believe in ZOG.
  - pjc50 7y ago
    We know gamergate was a conspiracy because someone found the IRC channel where the conspirators were conspiring.
    - brokenkebab 7y ago
      The proof of which existed only in form of a picture posted by 'someone' who (mildly speaking) was deeply involved in the controversy.
  - happytoexplain 7y ago
    You've in fact heard lots of reasonable sentences from conspiracy theorists, if you replace the nouns. I think it's less reasonable to believe in ZOG than to have the opinion that Gamergate appeared to be more about childish mockery and hatred than the more weighty concept of journalistic integrity. By the logic you're implying, we can't accept that anything is any more or less than exactly what it's most well-spoken proponents try to present it as.
    - brokenkebab 7y ago
      A conspiracy theorist can say reasonable things, however this exact thing is a circular argument: conspiracy exists but our proof doesn't look convincing exactly because it is conspiracy. There are no generalizations in my comment which you implied.
- dvtrn 7y ago
  Is it truly possible to know if this was a deliberate strategy of Gamergate? I’ve heard this statement before and when I try to politely challenge it...the results aren’t as kind in return. Hoping that isn’t the case here, because I am perhaps inappropriately curious if an answer exists.
  - pwinnski 7y ago
    Yes, it's beyond possible. It's a certainty. Contemporaneous logs[0] revealed the deliberate efforts of mysoginistic trolls to pretend their motivations were more palatable. [0] https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/09/new-chat-logs-show-how-4chan-users-pushed-gamergate-into-the-national-spotlight/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/09/new-chat-logs-show-ho...
    - dvtrn 7y ago
      Interesting. Proceeding to read your link this moment I admit-despite being someone who plays a lot of video games quite frequently I didn't wade into these waters because from the sidelines it looked like a lot of people painting things with very wide brushes and a lot of static noise that made trying to sift through any of it more annoying than it was worth.
    - dmix 7y ago
      Trolls always try to wrap their attacks in semi-agreeable contexts so it doesn't get immediately dismissed and can enter mainstream channels. That's the whole idea. Similar to how activists try to wrap everyone who disagrees with them as mere sexists/racists/etc to give their arguments weight and credibility in those same channels - usually using the troll's purposefully provocative behaviour as their evidence and justification. It's an increasingly popular phenomenon that we need to be conscious of as a culture and not give credence to the trolls while also not using examples from the fringe to pigeonhole the whole.
- Frondo 7y ago
  It's not just gamergate that uses that ambiguity -- think of how the "okay" symbol ("o" formed with thumb and first finger, remaining three extended upward) has been repurposed as a white power gesture; all of the group photos of proud boys and other white supremacist groups now have them all holding up that distinctive "okay" hand gesture, because it's a call out to their values and to the people that share them. But when the 4channers were first starting to use it this way, it could be dismissed as "what, it's just an okay symbol"... The ambiguity ("it's just a joke, it's just this, it's just that") is part of their discourse.
  - minimaxir 7y ago
    Yes, that's what I was alluding to.
  - davesmith1983 7y ago
    The proud boys are a strange white power group when they have prominent black members.
    - Frondo 7y ago
      I'm glad you didn't dispute that they're a white power group; for interested readers who waded this far into the comments, here are some useful links: * https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/proud-boys https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/proud-boys * https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/proud-boys https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/grou...
      - davesmith1983 7y ago
        Obviously I was disputing it. You do know that Gavin McInnes wife is an Indian right and he started the proud boys as a joke? Do do know that right? I wouldn't believe everything you read from those sources. The SPLC just had to apologise and pay 3.3 million to Maajid Nawas because they called him Islamophobic and he is a Muslim. Maajid Nawas was suing them for deformation in the UK. https://www.splcenter.org/news/2018/06/18/splc-statement-regarding-maajid-nawaz-and-quilliam-foundation https://www.splcenter.org/news/2018/06/18/splc-statement-reg...
happytoexplain 7y ago
There is the possibility of conflating between members who are hateful trolls vs members who are honestly critical, and there is the possibility of any given movement being legitimately defined by hatefulness, by sheer membership and public expression alone. It's hard to draw a line between those two things, but I think, personally, based on tons of experience in the places Gamergaters were most prevalent, that Gamergate lay on the hateful side of that imaginary line, and in fact was not even particularly close to the line.

by Reedx 7y ago

minimaxir 7y ago

That ambiguity was a deliberate strategy of Gamergate (and still is a deliberate strategy even today of those with similar disposition).

brokenkebab 7y ago
Do you realize you are employing typical defence of any conspiracy theory when facing the fact that an alleged conspiracy doesn't look consistent to be real? And I mean absolutely literally. That exact statement I heard from people who believe in ZOG.
- pjc50 7y ago
  We know gamergate was a conspiracy because someone found the IRC channel where the conspirators were conspiring.
  - brokenkebab 7y ago
    The proof of which existed only in form of a picture posted by 'someone' who (mildly speaking) was deeply involved in the controversy.
- happytoexplain 7y ago
  You've in fact heard lots of reasonable sentences from conspiracy theorists, if you replace the nouns. I think it's less reasonable to believe in ZOG than to have the opinion that Gamergate appeared to be more about childish mockery and hatred than the more weighty concept of journalistic integrity. By the logic you're implying, we can't accept that anything is any more or less than exactly what it's most well-spoken proponents try to present it as.
  - brokenkebab 7y ago
    A conspiracy theorist can say reasonable things, however this exact thing is a circular argument: conspiracy exists but our proof doesn't look convincing exactly because it is conspiracy. There are no generalizations in my comment which you implied.
dvtrn 7y ago
Is it truly possible to know if this was a deliberate strategy of Gamergate? I’ve heard this statement before and when I try to politely challenge it...the results aren’t as kind in return. Hoping that isn’t the case here, because I am perhaps inappropriately curious if an answer exists.
- pwinnski 7y ago
  Yes, it's beyond possible. It's a certainty. Contemporaneous logs[0] revealed the deliberate efforts of mysoginistic trolls to pretend their motivations were more palatable. [0] https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/09/new-chat-logs-show-how-4chan-users-pushed-gamergate-into-the-national-spotlight/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/09/new-chat-logs-show-ho...
  - dvtrn 7y ago
    Interesting. Proceeding to read your link this moment I admit-despite being someone who plays a lot of video games quite frequently I didn't wade into these waters because from the sidelines it looked like a lot of people painting things with very wide brushes and a lot of static noise that made trying to sift through any of it more annoying than it was worth.
  - dmix 7y ago
    Trolls always try to wrap their attacks in semi-agreeable contexts so it doesn't get immediately dismissed and can enter mainstream channels. That's the whole idea. Similar to how activists try to wrap everyone who disagrees with them as mere sexists/racists/etc to give their arguments weight and credibility in those same channels - usually using the troll's purposefully provocative behaviour as their evidence and justification. It's an increasingly popular phenomenon that we need to be conscious of as a culture and not give credence to the trolls while also not using examples from the fringe to pigeonhole the whole.
Frondo 7y ago
It's not just gamergate that uses that ambiguity -- think of how the "okay" symbol ("o" formed with thumb and first finger, remaining three extended upward) has been repurposed as a white power gesture; all of the group photos of proud boys and other white supremacist groups now have them all holding up that distinctive "okay" hand gesture, because it's a call out to their values and to the people that share them. But when the 4channers were first starting to use it this way, it could be dismissed as "what, it's just an okay symbol"... The ambiguity ("it's just a joke, it's just this, it's just that") is part of their discourse.
- minimaxir 7y ago
  Yes, that's what I was alluding to.
- davesmith1983 7y ago
  The proud boys are a strange white power group when they have prominent black members.
  - Frondo 7y ago
    I'm glad you didn't dispute that they're a white power group; for interested readers who waded this far into the comments, here are some useful links: * https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/proud-boys https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/proud-boys * https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/proud-boys https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/grou...
    - davesmith1983 7y ago
      Obviously I was disputing it. You do know that Gavin McInnes wife is an Indian right and he started the proud boys as a joke? Do do know that right? I wouldn't believe everything you read from those sources. The SPLC just had to apologise and pay 3.3 million to Maajid Nawas because they called him Islamophobic and he is a Muslim. Maajid Nawas was suing them for deformation in the UK. https://www.splcenter.org/news/2018/06/18/splc-statement-regarding-maajid-nawaz-and-quilliam-foundation https://www.splcenter.org/news/2018/06/18/splc-statement-reg...

happytoexplain 7y ago

There is the possibility of conflating between members who are hateful trolls vs members who are honestly critical, and there is the possibility of any given movement being legitimately defined by hatefulness, by sheer membership and public expression alone. It's hard to draw a line between those two things, but I think, personally, based on tons of experience in the places Gamergaters were most prevalent, that Gamergate lay on the hateful side of that imaginary line, and in fact was not even particularly close to the line.