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Yeah, and China does equally disgusting things to its own citizens. Literally right now they are enacting cultural genocide on millions of their own people (see

Yeah, and China does equally disgusting things to its own citizens. Literally right now they are enacting cultural genocide on millions of their own people (see: the uyghurs) Do you really have faith that China is going to act any differently to outsiders?

behringer 7y ago
Americans imprison more people than China. Americans imprison and torture children at the border.
- elefanten 7y ago
  Prison population's lower when you just execute people and harvest their organs.
  - behringer 7y ago
    And they say Americans don't do propaganda.
- fromthestart 7y ago
  >Americans imprison more people than China. But we have due process and most of these offenses are due to the failed drug war. Whether or not people should be locked up for drug offenses is one thing, but the laws being broken are pretty clear and generally aren't being used as punishment for expressing anti-government sentiment. >Americans imprison and torture children at the border This angle is pretty ridiculous. The border facilities are totally overwhelmed by an influx of people who by law are not allowed entry to the U.S. The vast majority are economic migrants, not assylum seekers. Moreover, they made the choice to come here knowing full well the illegality of their actions, and they are not being "imprisoned," they are being detained for a few weeks while the overloaded system processes their claims. Calling it torture is an exaggeration. Also the miserable conditions at the contentious facilities recently in the news are not representative of ICE facilities in general.
  - behringer 7y ago
    > not representative of ICE facilities in general. Save you speech for the children being tortured. Why don't you go down there and say that verbatim to their faces?
    - fromthestart 7y ago
      Why don't you talk to the parents who are knowingly taking the risk to entry the country illegally? >Save you speech for the children being tortured I don't think you know what the word torture means. You've been misled by propaganda. And, again, the problems are happening limited to a select number of overwhelmed facilities.
      - behringer 7y ago
        https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/doctor-compares-conditions-immigrant-holding-centers-torture-facilities/story?id=63879031 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/doctor-compares-conditions-i... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/26/week-in-patriarchy-immigrant-families-ice https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/26/week-in-patria... https://www.scarymommy.com/migrant-children-tortured-border-inmmigration-detention-centers/ https://www.scarymommy.com/migrant-children-tortured-border-... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/torture-facilities-immigrant-children-detention-dolly-lucio-sevier_n_5d11623fe4b07ae90da2393b?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAHDXus1Q1L5-BVPWzYC7uqBpCEbiQ7o0t3Y697aaGyN1XQLCbfMOpLRwmEOqOJgsHlMQOAspkz4h_SPdyuqJQQKtE0yAIBozOyLKbcem50a1r1rCM6EWniQZvzIVuXiAW0ki49fQD6mLiBZBdo_RZolmxZk7DqJlXqqKblMOywD4 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/torture-facilities-immigrant-... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/06/usa-family-separation-torture/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/06/usa-family-se... " The severe mental suffering that officials have intentionally inflicted on these families for coercive purposes, means that these acts meet the definitions of torture under both US and international law,” said Erika Guevara-Rosas, Amnesty International’s Americas Director."
        fromthestart 7y ago
        >The alleged conditions documented at the facilities follow a Homeland Security inspector general report that found "dangerous overcrowding" and unsanitary conditions at a different CBP facility in El Paso, Texas, where hundreds more migrants were being housed than the center was designed to hold. >The El Paso Del Norte Processing Center housed as many as 900 migrant detainees earlier this month despite only having a recommended capacity for 125. 9x over capacity. What exactly are you expecting? The implication that this treatment is intentional is pure political bias. In any case these conditions are not a secret and people continue to voluntarily make the illegal journey. Who is responsible here? That said, the actual ACLU CBP report was enlightening, detailing abuses going back to 2014 when the CBP program lowered standards during rapid expansion. It's hard to trust other modern news sources like those you provided because of their heavy political slant and propensity for sensationalism.
tepidandroid 7y ago
> Literally right now they are enacting cultural genocide on millions of their own people This is a vast over-exaggeration. I'm always surprised when people believe whatever they read without criticism or scrutiny.
- dTal 7y ago
  Am I supposed to believe your comment without criticism or scrutiny? Perhaps you'd like to elaborate, instead of just contradicting your parent?
  - tepidandroid 7y ago
    I was waiting for the parent commenter to respond first. I've elaborated below.
- debaserab2 7y ago
  https://qz.com/1599393/how-researchers-estimate-1-million-uyghurs-are-detained-in-xinjiang/ https://qz.com/1599393/how-researchers-estimate-1-million-uy...
  - tepidandroid 7y ago
    This is an example of what I mean by lack of scrutiny or criticism. If you look at the study by CHRD [1] cited in the article you’ve linked, you’ll see that their methodology is flawed in many ways. The most worrying part is that this study in particular is the basis of many articles similar to the one you've posted. What they did was they interviewed eight ethnic Uyghurs from eight different villages in Kashgar Prefecture in Xinjiang (the poorest and most problematic area in terms of violence and extremist ideology). They asked them questions like “how many people do you estimate live in your village” and “how many people do you think were taken from your village”. They then calculated the ratio of people detained to total inhabitants in these eight villages and extrapolated this ratio to the entire Uyghur population in the province of Xinjiang (population 23 million, many parts of which are prosperous and violence-free) in order to obtain the million+ estimate. The 1 million number (or 3 million, it’s hard to keep track of these days) is always thrown around like it’s a confirmed fact, which it decidedly is not. Furthermore, as the article mentions, CHRD is a group based in Washington, D.C that is almost wholly funded by U.S government grants [2, p.9]. There is a clear conflict of interest here especially in the context of growing rivalry and geopolitical posturing between China and the U.S. The article also mentions Radio Free Asia, an organization literally founded by the CIA [3][4] as an anti-Communist propaganda arm. They claim they are no longer affiliated. Again, another source wholly funded by the U.S government. [1] https://www.nchrd.org/2018/08/china-massive-numbers-of-uyghurs-other-ethnic-minorities-forced-into-re-education-programs/ https://www.nchrd.org/2018/08/china-massive-numbers-of-uyghu... [2] https://pdf.guidestar.org/PDF_Images/2015/260/523/2015-260523708-0cd17926-9.pdf https://pdf.guidestar.org/PDF_Images/2015/260/523/2015-26052... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Asia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Asia [4] https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/26/archives/worldwide-propaganda-network-built-by-the-cia-a-worldwide-network.html https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/26/archives/worldwide-propag...
HBKXNCUO 7y ago
Given the vast number of cultures which Islam has made into victims of "cultural genocide", it's not hard to sympathize with the Chinese on that matter.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
  - HBKXNCUO 7y ago
    If you wanted to make a more substantive comment, since this is HN, you could explain why you think either A) Islam has not made vast numbers of other cultures into victims of "cultural genocide", or B) that Islam will stop doing so on its own, or C) that it's disgusting for the Chinese to use "cultural genocide" to fight against a cultural system which has made vast numbers of other cultures into victims of "cultural genocide", and shows no signs of stopping on its own, in their own country, if that's what they want to do there. Or you can flag/downvote as a way to show disagreement. Your choice.
coldtea 7y ago
>Yeah, and China does equally disgusting things to its own citizens. Which I'm against, but that's for them to oppose. Several Eastern and Western European countries had dictatorships, torture, executions, etc, in 20th century as well, didn't see anybody coming from outside to fix things (and don't think their population would welcome an invasion to "fix" things -- like those "democracy bringing" wars in the middle east). And those pointing the finger at China today, were doing "disgusting things to their own citizens" (Jim Crow? Seggregation till the 70s? western world's worst prison system, 90% titled to blacks + death penalty still in use in 2019?), or were (and are) assisting regimes doing "disgusting things to their own citizens" then and now, so there's some hypocrisy involved too. >Do you really have faith that China is going to act any differently to outsiders? No, but there's a player with a known track record on this matters (a bad one) and one that is yet to build one. It's kinda like what Muhammad Ali allegedly said once: “No Viet Cong ever called me n....r”. Sure, they might. But thus far...

behringer 7y ago

Americans imprison more people than China. Americans imprison and torture children at the border.

elefanten 7y ago
Prison population's lower when you just execute people and harvest their organs.
- behringer 7y ago
  And they say Americans don't do propaganda.
fromthestart 7y ago
>Americans imprison more people than China. But we have due process and most of these offenses are due to the failed drug war. Whether or not people should be locked up for drug offenses is one thing, but the laws being broken are pretty clear and generally aren't being used as punishment for expressing anti-government sentiment. >Americans imprison and torture children at the border This angle is pretty ridiculous. The border facilities are totally overwhelmed by an influx of people who by law are not allowed entry to the U.S. The vast majority are economic migrants, not assylum seekers. Moreover, they made the choice to come here knowing full well the illegality of their actions, and they are not being "imprisoned," they are being detained for a few weeks while the overloaded system processes their claims. Calling it torture is an exaggeration. Also the miserable conditions at the contentious facilities recently in the news are not representative of ICE facilities in general.
- behringer 7y ago
  > not representative of ICE facilities in general. Save you speech for the children being tortured. Why don't you go down there and say that verbatim to their faces?
  - fromthestart 7y ago
    Why don't you talk to the parents who are knowingly taking the risk to entry the country illegally? >Save you speech for the children being tortured I don't think you know what the word torture means. You've been misled by propaganda. And, again, the problems are happening limited to a select number of overwhelmed facilities.
    - behringer 7y ago
      https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/doctor-compares-conditions-immigrant-holding-centers-torture-facilities/story?id=63879031 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/doctor-compares-conditions-i... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/26/week-in-patriarchy-immigrant-families-ice https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/26/week-in-patria... https://www.scarymommy.com/migrant-children-tortured-border-inmmigration-detention-centers/ https://www.scarymommy.com/migrant-children-tortured-border-... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/torture-facilities-immigrant-children-detention-dolly-lucio-sevier_n_5d11623fe4b07ae90da2393b?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAHDXus1Q1L5-BVPWzYC7uqBpCEbiQ7o0t3Y697aaGyN1XQLCbfMOpLRwmEOqOJgsHlMQOAspkz4h_SPdyuqJQQKtE0yAIBozOyLKbcem50a1r1rCM6EWniQZvzIVuXiAW0ki49fQD6mLiBZBdo_RZolmxZk7DqJlXqqKblMOywD4 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/torture-facilities-immigrant-... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/06/usa-family-separation-torture/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/06/usa-family-se... " The severe mental suffering that officials have intentionally inflicted on these families for coercive purposes, means that these acts meet the definitions of torture under both US and international law,” said Erika Guevara-Rosas, Amnesty International’s Americas Director."
      - fromthestart 7y ago
        >The alleged conditions documented at the facilities follow a Homeland Security inspector general report that found "dangerous overcrowding" and unsanitary conditions at a different CBP facility in El Paso, Texas, where hundreds more migrants were being housed than the center was designed to hold. >The El Paso Del Norte Processing Center housed as many as 900 migrant detainees earlier this month despite only having a recommended capacity for 125. 9x over capacity. What exactly are you expecting? The implication that this treatment is intentional is pure political bias. In any case these conditions are not a secret and people continue to voluntarily make the illegal journey. Who is responsible here? That said, the actual ACLU CBP report was enlightening, detailing abuses going back to 2014 when the CBP program lowered standards during rapid expansion. It's hard to trust other modern news sources like those you provided because of their heavy political slant and propensity for sensationalism.

tepidandroid 7y ago

> Literally right now they are enacting cultural genocide on millions of their own people This is a vast over-exaggeration. I'm always surprised when people believe whatever they read without criticism or scrutiny.

dTal 7y ago
Am I supposed to believe your comment without criticism or scrutiny? Perhaps you'd like to elaborate, instead of just contradicting your parent?
- tepidandroid 7y ago
  I was waiting for the parent commenter to respond first. I've elaborated below.
debaserab2 7y ago
https://qz.com/1599393/how-researchers-estimate-1-million-uyghurs-are-detained-in-xinjiang/ https://qz.com/1599393/how-researchers-estimate-1-million-uy...
- tepidandroid 7y ago
  This is an example of what I mean by lack of scrutiny or criticism. If you look at the study by CHRD [1] cited in the article you’ve linked, you’ll see that their methodology is flawed in many ways. The most worrying part is that this study in particular is the basis of many articles similar to the one you've posted. What they did was they interviewed eight ethnic Uyghurs from eight different villages in Kashgar Prefecture in Xinjiang (the poorest and most problematic area in terms of violence and extremist ideology). They asked them questions like “how many people do you estimate live in your village” and “how many people do you think were taken from your village”. They then calculated the ratio of people detained to total inhabitants in these eight villages and extrapolated this ratio to the entire Uyghur population in the province of Xinjiang (population 23 million, many parts of which are prosperous and violence-free) in order to obtain the million+ estimate. The 1 million number (or 3 million, it’s hard to keep track of these days) is always thrown around like it’s a confirmed fact, which it decidedly is not. Furthermore, as the article mentions, CHRD is a group based in Washington, D.C that is almost wholly funded by U.S government grants [2, p.9]. There is a clear conflict of interest here especially in the context of growing rivalry and geopolitical posturing between China and the U.S. The article also mentions Radio Free Asia, an organization literally founded by the CIA [3][4] as an anti-Communist propaganda arm. They claim they are no longer affiliated. Again, another source wholly funded by the U.S government. [1] https://www.nchrd.org/2018/08/china-massive-numbers-of-uyghurs-other-ethnic-minorities-forced-into-re-education-programs/ https://www.nchrd.org/2018/08/china-massive-numbers-of-uyghu... [2] https://pdf.guidestar.org/PDF_Images/2015/260/523/2015-260523708-0cd17926-9.pdf https://pdf.guidestar.org/PDF_Images/2015/260/523/2015-26052... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Asia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Asia [4] https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/26/archives/worldwide-propaganda-network-built-by-the-cia-a-worldwide-network.html https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/26/archives/worldwide-propag...

HBKXNCUO 7y ago

Given the vast number of cultures which Islam has made into victims of "cultural genocide", it's not hard to sympathize with the Chinese on that matter.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
- HBKXNCUO 7y ago
  If you wanted to make a more substantive comment, since this is HN, you could explain why you think either A) Islam has not made vast numbers of other cultures into victims of "cultural genocide", or B) that Islam will stop doing so on its own, or C) that it's disgusting for the Chinese to use "cultural genocide" to fight against a cultural system which has made vast numbers of other cultures into victims of "cultural genocide", and shows no signs of stopping on its own, in their own country, if that's what they want to do there. Or you can flag/downvote as a way to show disagreement. Your choice.

coldtea 7y ago

>Yeah, and China does equally disgusting things to its own citizens. Which I'm against, but that's for them to oppose. Several Eastern and Western European countries had dictatorships, torture, executions, etc, in 20th century as well, didn't see anybody coming from outside to fix things (and don't think their population would welcome an invasion to "fix" things -- like those "democracy bringing" wars in the middle east). And those pointing the finger at China today, were doing "disgusting things to their own citizens" (Jim Crow? Seggregation till the 70s? western world's worst prison system, 90% titled to blacks + death penalty still in use in 2019?), or were (and are) assisting regimes doing "disgusting things to their own citizens" then and now, so there's some hypocrisy involved too. >Do you really have faith that China is going to act any differently to outsiders? No, but there's a player with a known track record on this matters (a bad one) and one that is yet to build one. It's kinda like what Muhammad Ali allegedly said once: “No Viet Cong ever called me n....r”. Sure, they might. But thus far...