4 ms·

That comment is more directed towards the increase in eating disorders, body dysmorphia and negative thinking when comparing progress online. Particularly in me

That comment is more directed towards the increase in eating disorders, body dysmorphia and negative thinking when comparing progress online. Particularly in men. 5 years ago, 5plate is a solid deadlift, now junior women are pulling that. And it's causing very brittle minded people grief and others to push too hard ruinously when it's clearly not in their cards. Not to mention predatory fake natties schilling nutrition supplements, photoshopped photos etc etc. The gap between the average joe and top 0.01% is increasing as participation increases. I'm sure expectations will normalize with time, but I've noticed a distinct increase in unhappiness among people who spend too much time on bodybuilding/powerlifting instagrams due to increasingly unrealistic expectations. That's not unique to lifting culture overall, but it's a salient development for a niche sport that rapidly gain popularity.

opportune 7y ago
Are there any specific eating disorders that these men you are describing are more inclined to be victims of? I feel like this whole intermittent fasting trend is a little eating-disorder-ish but it doesn't seem that bad overall. I do agree the dysmorphia is getting bad. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that anabolic steroid use is growing rapidly. I think it's really analogous to how in certain sports, athletes feel like they need to use anabolic steroids to even compete; now because of instagram (and even just more people in real life... I've seen a few people at my shitty gym who almost definitely are juicing) it feels like these huge juiced up guys are everywhere and it threatens regular people's masculinity
- dirtyid 7y ago
  https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/31/eating-disorders-in-men-rise-by-70-in-nhs-figures https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/31/eating-disor... Just in general, there have been quite a few articles like this in the last few years. Particularly affects bodybuilding communities trying to get to sub 10% bodyfat. One of the problems is that lifting social media is basically Youtube recommendation on steriods (pun intended), the average lifter that lifts or diets for health doesn't get as much attention as the shredded one lifting big weights, probably on drugs, and if not, have genetics 99.99% of people doesn't and therefore have effectively zero chance of replicating. Edit: another issue is because health culture likes to emphasis on hard work and discipline without acknowledging that 2sigma genetics is precursor to being at the very top. Kids see juiced idols who play the eat well and work hard card (including wholesome figures like Arnold), whose livelihood depends on perpetuating that myth, and telling the truth is tantamount to admitting you committed a crime due to legislation around steriods. The incentives are stacked.
bartread 7y ago
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 5 plate, but if you're talking about 5 x 20kg plates on either end of an olympic bar (which is another 20kg), that's a 220kg/495lb deadlift and is still very much a solid deadlift. For an 85kg man (average in UK is 83.6kg) that's as near as makes no odds 2.6x body weight. For a 70kg woman (average in UK in 70.2kg) it's more than 3x body weight. Generally anything more than 2x body weight is considered a solid deadlift for both men and women. Sure, not in powerlifting, but powerlifting is still pretty niche even amongst people who lift regularly. (For comparison, I weigh 97kg (14-15% body fat) and would be over the moon with a 220kg deadlift. I'm heading in the right direction but a couple of unrelated skiing injuries have prevented me from getting there... and of course, I'm getting older, so who knows.) EDIT: Corrected with ONS figures for average weights in UK.
- dirtyid 7y ago
  ~500lb is very much an aspiration life time goal for most trained men, even revised army fitness standard full score doesn't ask for more than 340lbs. Minimum is 140lbs. I think NASA / astronauts prescriptions is also a very low sub bodyweight multiplier for reps to prevent atrophy AND MITIGATE INJURY RISK in space which is key. That is probably what the general population should shoot for. On social media, the gold standard for bragging strong was 500 as little as 5 years ago, hence all the meme that 600 is the new 500 and now 700 is the new 500 everytime world records are pushed by elite athletes no one should be comparing themselves to. But for some reason a lot of lifters tend to do this even though very few people think if they train hard enough they can be faster or comparable to Usain Bolt. I think it's a unique development with the intersection of social media and lifting culture. The bell curve for strength in the population hasn't changed, but the top 0.01% are increasingly visible and it's causing a crisis in social comparison that's not healthy. I don't know if it's a unique issue only for people involved in niche powerlifitng/bodybuilding subcultures, I think it's one of those situations where memes migrate up to general fitness/resistance training enthusiasts and starts to affect casual viewers who like to compare. There's also a fair amount of people who get into lifting due to self esteem reasons.
  - saiya-jin 7y ago
raverbashing 7y ago
Junior women can't pull a 5 plate DL. Women can, but certainly not junior. Even for men it takes some time to get there. There's a tendency (especially on the internet forums) to think that average muscle mass an capability is the same, when it varies a lot more. It's ok if a person can't do a 50kg deadlift at the beginning. Everybody has their own limits.
- dirtyid 7y ago
  Jessica Buettner pulled 227.5kg (502lbs) at 72kg last year at 23years old, Amanda Lawrence pulled 252.5kg (557lbs) at 84kg this year at 22years old, both in Junior women classic powerlifting. It's OK to be to pull whatever weight, lifting should be about realistic self improvement and self empowerment. My point is because records are getting chipped so fast, and for the first time, extremely strong women are entering the stage due the raising popularity of lifting among women that it's causing a lot of issues (and toxicity) in lifting social media, which I recommend most people to stay away from.
  - raverbashing 7y ago
    Junior is usually defined as "inexperienced" (as in "junior developer") They might be at a competition "junior" level but I'm willing to bet they have at least 5y.r. of experience lifting weights She was competing already in 2014 (source https://www.openpowerlifting.org/u/jessicabuettner https://www.openpowerlifting.org/u/jessicabuettner ) and she's also Type 1 diabetic Also this is a competition/record level of weight for their bodyweight, men might be lifting 220kg for their usual workout
    - dirtyid 7y ago
      My bad for using lifting classification nomenclature. Record breakers get social media attention and lifters like to compare/peg their progress to how fast the top 1% progresses. Conventional wisdom suggests diminishing returns at extreme end of competitiveness, but since there are so many new entrants into the sport, outlier "juniors" are progressing extremely fast and shattering records on time scale that normally take years in a mature sport. 5 years is really a short career in lifting terms - many people who lift similar amount of time with less progress are getting... overwhelmed by the progress. This progress is happening in male weight classes as well, but I think women deadlifting or squatting 500lbs makes some men question their masculinity in unhealthy ways. There was always 20 year old women who could deadlift 500lbs, but they didn't train, now they do and they're very visible. Now they are and as expected, some people can't cope and even form toxic communities around their inability to cope. Buettner in particular gets shit on because she gets insulin TUE, and insulin is performance enhancing in muscle building... and keeping her alive. It's all very dumb.
tarsinge 7y ago
Also there is a lot of confusion between bodybuilding and powerlifting, especially on communities like /r/fitness (it starting to improve though last time I checked). I think it started a few years ago with websites like stronglifts.com with the idea that increasing weight was the only objective, leading to injuries and disappointment for beginners.

opportune 7y ago

Are there any specific eating disorders that these men you are describing are more inclined to be victims of? I feel like this whole intermittent fasting trend is a little eating-disorder-ish but it doesn't seem that bad overall. I do agree the dysmorphia is getting bad. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that anabolic steroid use is growing rapidly. I think it's really analogous to how in certain sports, athletes feel like they need to use anabolic steroids to even compete; now because of instagram (and even just more people in real life... I've seen a few people at my shitty gym who almost definitely are juicing) it feels like these huge juiced up guys are everywhere and it threatens regular people's masculinity

dirtyid 7y ago
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/31/eating-disorders-in-men-rise-by-70-in-nhs-figures https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/31/eating-disor... Just in general, there have been quite a few articles like this in the last few years. Particularly affects bodybuilding communities trying to get to sub 10% bodyfat. One of the problems is that lifting social media is basically Youtube recommendation on steriods (pun intended), the average lifter that lifts or diets for health doesn't get as much attention as the shredded one lifting big weights, probably on drugs, and if not, have genetics 99.99% of people doesn't and therefore have effectively zero chance of replicating. Edit: another issue is because health culture likes to emphasis on hard work and discipline without acknowledging that 2sigma genetics is precursor to being at the very top. Kids see juiced idols who play the eat well and work hard card (including wholesome figures like Arnold), whose livelihood depends on perpetuating that myth, and telling the truth is tantamount to admitting you committed a crime due to legislation around steriods. The incentives are stacked.

bartread 7y ago

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 5 plate, but if you're talking about 5 x 20kg plates on either end of an olympic bar (which is another 20kg), that's a 220kg/495lb deadlift and is still very much a solid deadlift. For an 85kg man (average in UK is 83.6kg) that's as near as makes no odds 2.6x body weight. For a 70kg woman (average in UK in 70.2kg) it's more than 3x body weight. Generally anything more than 2x body weight is considered a solid deadlift for both men and women. Sure, not in powerlifting, but powerlifting is still pretty niche even amongst people who lift regularly. (For comparison, I weigh 97kg (14-15% body fat) and would be over the moon with a 220kg deadlift. I'm heading in the right direction but a couple of unrelated skiing injuries have prevented me from getting there... and of course, I'm getting older, so who knows.) EDIT: Corrected with ONS figures for average weights in UK.

dirtyid 7y ago
~500lb is very much an aspiration life time goal for most trained men, even revised army fitness standard full score doesn't ask for more than 340lbs. Minimum is 140lbs. I think NASA / astronauts prescriptions is also a very low sub bodyweight multiplier for reps to prevent atrophy AND MITIGATE INJURY RISK in space which is key. That is probably what the general population should shoot for. On social media, the gold standard for bragging strong was 500 as little as 5 years ago, hence all the meme that 600 is the new 500 and now 700 is the new 500 everytime world records are pushed by elite athletes no one should be comparing themselves to. But for some reason a lot of lifters tend to do this even though very few people think if they train hard enough they can be faster or comparable to Usain Bolt. I think it's a unique development with the intersection of social media and lifting culture. The bell curve for strength in the population hasn't changed, but the top 0.01% are increasingly visible and it's causing a crisis in social comparison that's not healthy. I don't know if it's a unique issue only for people involved in niche powerlifitng/bodybuilding subcultures, I think it's one of those situations where memes migrate up to general fitness/resistance training enthusiasts and starts to affect casual viewers who like to compare. There's also a fair amount of people who get into lifting due to self esteem reasons.
- saiya-jin 7y ago

raverbashing 7y ago

Junior women can't pull a 5 plate DL. Women can, but certainly not junior. Even for men it takes some time to get there. There's a tendency (especially on the internet forums) to think that average muscle mass an capability is the same, when it varies a lot more. It's ok if a person can't do a 50kg deadlift at the beginning. Everybody has their own limits.

dirtyid 7y ago
Jessica Buettner pulled 227.5kg (502lbs) at 72kg last year at 23years old, Amanda Lawrence pulled 252.5kg (557lbs) at 84kg this year at 22years old, both in Junior women classic powerlifting. It's OK to be to pull whatever weight, lifting should be about realistic self improvement and self empowerment. My point is because records are getting chipped so fast, and for the first time, extremely strong women are entering the stage due the raising popularity of lifting among women that it's causing a lot of issues (and toxicity) in lifting social media, which I recommend most people to stay away from.
- raverbashing 7y ago
  Junior is usually defined as "inexperienced" (as in "junior developer") They might be at a competition "junior" level but I'm willing to bet they have at least 5y.r. of experience lifting weights She was competing already in 2014 (source https://www.openpowerlifting.org/u/jessicabuettner https://www.openpowerlifting.org/u/jessicabuettner ) and she's also Type 1 diabetic Also this is a competition/record level of weight for their bodyweight, men might be lifting 220kg for their usual workout
  - dirtyid 7y ago
    My bad for using lifting classification nomenclature. Record breakers get social media attention and lifters like to compare/peg their progress to how fast the top 1% progresses. Conventional wisdom suggests diminishing returns at extreme end of competitiveness, but since there are so many new entrants into the sport, outlier "juniors" are progressing extremely fast and shattering records on time scale that normally take years in a mature sport. 5 years is really a short career in lifting terms - many people who lift similar amount of time with less progress are getting... overwhelmed by the progress. This progress is happening in male weight classes as well, but I think women deadlifting or squatting 500lbs makes some men question their masculinity in unhealthy ways. There was always 20 year old women who could deadlift 500lbs, but they didn't train, now they do and they're very visible. Now they are and as expected, some people can't cope and even form toxic communities around their inability to cope. Buettner in particular gets shit on because she gets insulin TUE, and insulin is performance enhancing in muscle building... and keeping her alive. It's all very dumb.

tarsinge 7y ago

Also there is a lot of confusion between bodybuilding and powerlifting, especially on communities like /r/fitness (it starting to improve though last time I checked). I think it started a few years ago with websites like stronglifts.com with the idea that increasing weight was the only objective, leading to injuries and disappointment for beginners.