12 ms·

On the social comparison note, I don't regret 8 years of constant training in the least, however I do suspect that if you do add a lot of musculature to a tall

On the social comparison note, I don't regret 8 years of constant training in the least, however I do suspect that if you do add a lot of musculature to a tall frame it can be a bit intimidating in engineering cultures where most men are out of shape and view the activity as "meatheadish."

asdfman123 7y ago
I think if you are fit and in addition dress well and are nice to people, you just come across as someone who has their life together. I suppose there will always be the haters, though.
- sundvor 7y ago
  As you get older staying fit is even more important. Both for your ability to just function, and also I strongly believe it signals you've still got your sh1t together. In my mid 40s I let myself go and got over 100kg (I'm ~6.3), but have dropped 10kg in the last 1.5 years and also gotten stronger. 2-3 sessions a week of Stronglifts 5x5 and riding instead of driving to work. I reckon my head just works better as well. I find it much easier to concentrate for longer periods of time.
starpilot 7y ago
I don't know, in west coast tech centers, it's pretty much a meme that all tech bros rock climb/boulder.
- nextlevelwizard 7y ago
  Only reason people hate on others improving themselves is because it brings forth their own inadequacies and chips at their ego. Rock/wall climbing is fun and you can really see yourself improve fast if you just have the discipline to get to the climbing gym three-ish times per week. Plus it will make you look good and feel better about yourself which will just make you all around better person.
  - asdfman123 7y ago
    I don't think it's that. Some people are legitimately obnoxious and believe they can dominate you because they spend more time lifting weights, and they have really obnoxious philosophies and pet theories that justify their own behavior. They're the natural enemy of shier people, and as a result those types can be distrustful.
    - nextlevelwizard 7y ago
      Lifting and in general working on yourself does shift your world view. You start to see through a lot of the bullshit that people peddle during the day. I bet same thing happens when you build something all by yourself knowing that only you could have done what you did.
      - asdfman123 7y ago
        Well, very broadly speaking there are two ways of looking at things. One philosophy is we should live in a world where the playing field is leveled and we should look out for the weak. Another is the weak need to get out of the way of the strong, and if you are struggling, it is your responsibility to become stronger. Increasingly I feel personal philosophies are largely self-serving. You believe in things that will benefit you. As you gain strength in one area, you tend more towards the second philosophy. However, I think believing that can easily turn people into bullies. Do we want a society that is optimized for the dominance of the few? Do we want to break every interaction down crudely into a competition between "the strong" and "the weak," despite the fact that human beings are complicated and are strong and weak in many different areas? The mistake a lot of meatheads make is assuming because they have physical strength, they should be allowed to dominate. However, in modern society, I feel other forms of strength are much more important. Emotional strength. Moral strength. Intellectual strength. They don't have much to do with muscle size, despite what some seem to believe. We should respect character more and physical appearance less. I'm actually gaining weight pretty quickly now after weight lifting, but I hope I never forget what it feels like to be pushed around, and I never let myself push around others.
fortran77 7y ago
I'm not sure. Even though I don't want to admit it, I'm sure I, along with many others, would have more confidence in a fit, muscular person than an out-of-shape slovenly one.
- hueving 7y ago
  I'm the opposite for hardcore engineers. An in-shape, muscular person looks like they have dedicated a non-trivial amount of time to not software. I presume most people that look like that just see writing software as "a job" and won't be as capable of fully owning anything more complex than small portions of a complex application.
  - 0815test 7y ago
    > An in-shape, muscular person looks like they have dedicated a non-trivial amount of time to not software. Hitting the gym can actually be pretty complementary to writing software or doing other sorts of engineering in the best possible way. For example, many people are psychologically messed up due to some sort of mental "baggage" that basically shows up as a somatic fight-or-flight response, albeit generally in an in-set, chronicized form rather than a literal stress reaction. This can place a significant cap on both your executive function and your self-perceived mental acuity. Hitting the gym is an excellent, time- and cost-effective way to work that stress out of your body and mind!
    - hueving 7y ago
      That's effectively quack science. I'd love to be proven otherwise with evidence, but I've seen nothing that shows people spending an hour a day outperforming people who do not in mental tasks.
    - asdfman123 7y ago
      I had a boss that was a good programmer and would work late into the night on pet projects. A true coder. But he'd get so stressed out he'd yell at team members every time things went wrong. Communication was poor and the whole team suffered from it. You need to devote a "non-trival" amount of time becoming a well rounded person or everything else is going to suffer, including your ability to maintain relationships in the workplace and communicate. That's way more important than knowing all the arcane details of the Java virtual machine.
imesh 7y ago
I beleive it's all in your head. I used to feel very self conscious in my CS classes about looking like a meathead, but I can't point to in instance during schooling or career where that feeling was confirmed by someone's actions/words.
- leet_thow 7y ago
  Before I trained an engineering manager literally said offhand a candidate was "to big," during my training I had a small framed junior engineer do a 180 and become adversarial after I talked about my training and goals at a group lunch and in interviews I've sensed discomfort from men with small frames as well. It really is instinctual. In the manosphere subculture it is called getting "mogged" as in Alpha Male Other Guy and in forums where they speak freely it is an acknowledged phenomena.
  - 01100011 7y ago
    I think there is something that is inherent to 'nerd culture', at least of a certain generation, which instills a feeling of otherness and persecution by 'alphas'. I was a socially awkward nerd in high school with few friends. I left feeling like I was persecuted and had a large chip on my shoulder towards 'normies'. It wasn't until years later that I realized most of it was in my head and self-inflicted. There is a lot of media out there pushing the 'jocks throw nerd in a trashcan' meme. I grew up in places where you'd have thought things like that would have gone on, but in hindsight I don't remember much of it. Sure, the cool kids didn't value intelligence, but they weren't persecuting anyone for it. I get the impression lots of other nerd types have a similar chip on their shoulders, whether from real trauma or imagined. As I have become more fit and more outgoing over the years, I find it's harder to connect with other nerds, perhaps because I don't share the same victimhood fantasy, or maybe I just seem unapproachable to them? I don't know, but I definitely feel more apprehension than when I was a fat guy with bad posture and ill fitting clothes.
    - licebmi__at__ 7y ago
      So the persecution feeling of "nerds" from "jocks" is "mostly in their head and self-inflicted", but the persecution for being "alpha" from "guys with smaller frames" is totally real. And really, I really can't help to think about all the mental baggage someone who uses the term "alpha" has.
dirtyid 7y ago
That comment is more directed towards the increase in eating disorders, body dysmorphia and negative thinking when comparing progress online. Particularly in men. 5 years ago, 5plate is a solid deadlift, now junior women are pulling that. And it's causing very brittle minded people grief and others to push too hard ruinously when it's clearly not in their cards. Not to mention predatory fake natties schilling nutrition supplements, photoshopped photos etc etc. The gap between the average joe and top 0.01% is increasing as participation increases. I'm sure expectations will normalize with time, but I've noticed a distinct increase in unhappiness among people who spend too much time on bodybuilding/powerlifting instagrams due to increasingly unrealistic expectations. That's not unique to lifting culture overall, but it's a salient development for a niche sport that rapidly gain popularity.
- opportune 7y ago
  Are there any specific eating disorders that these men you are describing are more inclined to be victims of? I feel like this whole intermittent fasting trend is a little eating-disorder-ish but it doesn't seem that bad overall. I do agree the dysmorphia is getting bad. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that anabolic steroid use is growing rapidly. I think it's really analogous to how in certain sports, athletes feel like they need to use anabolic steroids to even compete; now because of instagram (and even just more people in real life... I've seen a few people at my shitty gym who almost definitely are juicing) it feels like these huge juiced up guys are everywhere and it threatens regular people's masculinity
  - dirtyid 7y ago
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/31/eating-disorders-in-men-rise-by-70-in-nhs-figures https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/31/eating-disor... Just in general, there have been quite a few articles like this in the last few years. Particularly affects bodybuilding communities trying to get to sub 10% bodyfat. One of the problems is that lifting social media is basically Youtube recommendation on steriods (pun intended), the average lifter that lifts or diets for health doesn't get as much attention as the shredded one lifting big weights, probably on drugs, and if not, have genetics 99.99% of people doesn't and therefore have effectively zero chance of replicating. Edit: another issue is because health culture likes to emphasis on hard work and discipline without acknowledging that 2sigma genetics is precursor to being at the very top. Kids see juiced idols who play the eat well and work hard card (including wholesome figures like Arnold), whose livelihood depends on perpetuating that myth, and telling the truth is tantamount to admitting you committed a crime due to legislation around steriods. The incentives are stacked.
01100011 7y ago
Thank you for saying this, as I was about to post something similar. I came to the valley about 8 months ago, and switched from hiking to lifting because of time constraints. Since getting big, I've felt more and more out of place. I even caught one of my bosses referring to me as a 'bro' when he didn't realize I had dialed in to a meeting. Now, granted, the current crop of engineers I work with are some of the most stereotypically nerdy folks I've ever encountered. Back in San Diego, the engineers I worked with were usually surfers, extreme skiers, advanced cyclists, or some other "alpha" pursuit. The "alpha" engineers in the valley that I've encountered so far... are generally pale, skinny, socially awkward and not very friendly. (Edit: Quotes around 'alpha'. Added 'engineers' after second 'alpha'. I thought I edited out the second usage of 'alpha' because it's really all engineers, but keeping it because it still works.)
- leet_thow 7y ago
  I think you are likely on to something with this and your comment below. Testosterone has been decreasing steadily in men over the years and sitting in front of a machine all day probably doesn't help. And yes, the "jocks vs nerds" meme likely contributes to the mentality we are sensing.
  - raverbashing 7y ago
    > And yes, the "jocks vs nerds" meme likely contributes to the mentality we are sensing. Well, bullying was a thing, and it wasn't the nerds bullying the jocks
    - isoskeles 7y ago
      Sure, but to bring that mentality to adulthood seems ridiculous.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - bigmit37 7y ago

asdfman123 7y ago

I think if you are fit and in addition dress well and are nice to people, you just come across as someone who has their life together. I suppose there will always be the haters, though.

sundvor 7y ago
As you get older staying fit is even more important. Both for your ability to just function, and also I strongly believe it signals you've still got your sh1t together. In my mid 40s I let myself go and got over 100kg (I'm ~6.3), but have dropped 10kg in the last 1.5 years and also gotten stronger. 2-3 sessions a week of Stronglifts 5x5 and riding instead of driving to work. I reckon my head just works better as well. I find it much easier to concentrate for longer periods of time.

starpilot 7y ago

I don't know, in west coast tech centers, it's pretty much a meme that all tech bros rock climb/boulder.

nextlevelwizard 7y ago
Only reason people hate on others improving themselves is because it brings forth their own inadequacies and chips at their ego. Rock/wall climbing is fun and you can really see yourself improve fast if you just have the discipline to get to the climbing gym three-ish times per week. Plus it will make you look good and feel better about yourself which will just make you all around better person.
- asdfman123 7y ago
  I don't think it's that. Some people are legitimately obnoxious and believe they can dominate you because they spend more time lifting weights, and they have really obnoxious philosophies and pet theories that justify their own behavior. They're the natural enemy of shier people, and as a result those types can be distrustful.
  - nextlevelwizard 7y ago
    Lifting and in general working on yourself does shift your world view. You start to see through a lot of the bullshit that people peddle during the day. I bet same thing happens when you build something all by yourself knowing that only you could have done what you did.
    - asdfman123 7y ago
      Well, very broadly speaking there are two ways of looking at things. One philosophy is we should live in a world where the playing field is leveled and we should look out for the weak. Another is the weak need to get out of the way of the strong, and if you are struggling, it is your responsibility to become stronger. Increasingly I feel personal philosophies are largely self-serving. You believe in things that will benefit you. As you gain strength in one area, you tend more towards the second philosophy. However, I think believing that can easily turn people into bullies. Do we want a society that is optimized for the dominance of the few? Do we want to break every interaction down crudely into a competition between "the strong" and "the weak," despite the fact that human beings are complicated and are strong and weak in many different areas? The mistake a lot of meatheads make is assuming because they have physical strength, they should be allowed to dominate. However, in modern society, I feel other forms of strength are much more important. Emotional strength. Moral strength. Intellectual strength. They don't have much to do with muscle size, despite what some seem to believe. We should respect character more and physical appearance less. I'm actually gaining weight pretty quickly now after weight lifting, but I hope I never forget what it feels like to be pushed around, and I never let myself push around others.

fortran77 7y ago

I'm not sure. Even though I don't want to admit it, I'm sure I, along with many others, would have more confidence in a fit, muscular person than an out-of-shape slovenly one.

hueving 7y ago
I'm the opposite for hardcore engineers. An in-shape, muscular person looks like they have dedicated a non-trivial amount of time to not software. I presume most people that look like that just see writing software as "a job" and won't be as capable of fully owning anything more complex than small portions of a complex application.
- 0815test 7y ago
  > An in-shape, muscular person looks like they have dedicated a non-trivial amount of time to not software. Hitting the gym can actually be pretty complementary to writing software or doing other sorts of engineering in the best possible way. For example, many people are psychologically messed up due to some sort of mental "baggage" that basically shows up as a somatic fight-or-flight response, albeit generally in an in-set, chronicized form rather than a literal stress reaction. This can place a significant cap on both your executive function and your self-perceived mental acuity. Hitting the gym is an excellent, time- and cost-effective way to work that stress out of your body and mind!
  - hueving 7y ago
    That's effectively quack science. I'd love to be proven otherwise with evidence, but I've seen nothing that shows people spending an hour a day outperforming people who do not in mental tasks.
  - asdfman123 7y ago
    I had a boss that was a good programmer and would work late into the night on pet projects. A true coder. But he'd get so stressed out he'd yell at team members every time things went wrong. Communication was poor and the whole team suffered from it. You need to devote a "non-trival" amount of time becoming a well rounded person or everything else is going to suffer, including your ability to maintain relationships in the workplace and communicate. That's way more important than knowing all the arcane details of the Java virtual machine.

imesh 7y ago

I beleive it's all in your head. I used to feel very self conscious in my CS classes about looking like a meathead, but I can't point to in instance during schooling or career where that feeling was confirmed by someone's actions/words.

leet_thow 7y ago
Before I trained an engineering manager literally said offhand a candidate was "to big," during my training I had a small framed junior engineer do a 180 and become adversarial after I talked about my training and goals at a group lunch and in interviews I've sensed discomfort from men with small frames as well. It really is instinctual. In the manosphere subculture it is called getting "mogged" as in Alpha Male Other Guy and in forums where they speak freely it is an acknowledged phenomena.
- 01100011 7y ago
  I think there is something that is inherent to 'nerd culture', at least of a certain generation, which instills a feeling of otherness and persecution by 'alphas'. I was a socially awkward nerd in high school with few friends. I left feeling like I was persecuted and had a large chip on my shoulder towards 'normies'. It wasn't until years later that I realized most of it was in my head and self-inflicted. There is a lot of media out there pushing the 'jocks throw nerd in a trashcan' meme. I grew up in places where you'd have thought things like that would have gone on, but in hindsight I don't remember much of it. Sure, the cool kids didn't value intelligence, but they weren't persecuting anyone for it. I get the impression lots of other nerd types have a similar chip on their shoulders, whether from real trauma or imagined. As I have become more fit and more outgoing over the years, I find it's harder to connect with other nerds, perhaps because I don't share the same victimhood fantasy, or maybe I just seem unapproachable to them? I don't know, but I definitely feel more apprehension than when I was a fat guy with bad posture and ill fitting clothes.
  - licebmi__at__ 7y ago
    So the persecution feeling of "nerds" from "jocks" is "mostly in their head and self-inflicted", but the persecution for being "alpha" from "guys with smaller frames" is totally real. And really, I really can't help to think about all the mental baggage someone who uses the term "alpha" has.

dirtyid 7y ago

That comment is more directed towards the increase in eating disorders, body dysmorphia and negative thinking when comparing progress online. Particularly in men. 5 years ago, 5plate is a solid deadlift, now junior women are pulling that. And it's causing very brittle minded people grief and others to push too hard ruinously when it's clearly not in their cards. Not to mention predatory fake natties schilling nutrition supplements, photoshopped photos etc etc. The gap between the average joe and top 0.01% is increasing as participation increases. I'm sure expectations will normalize with time, but I've noticed a distinct increase in unhappiness among people who spend too much time on bodybuilding/powerlifting instagrams due to increasingly unrealistic expectations. That's not unique to lifting culture overall, but it's a salient development for a niche sport that rapidly gain popularity.

opportune 7y ago
Are there any specific eating disorders that these men you are describing are more inclined to be victims of? I feel like this whole intermittent fasting trend is a little eating-disorder-ish but it doesn't seem that bad overall. I do agree the dysmorphia is getting bad. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that anabolic steroid use is growing rapidly. I think it's really analogous to how in certain sports, athletes feel like they need to use anabolic steroids to even compete; now because of instagram (and even just more people in real life... I've seen a few people at my shitty gym who almost definitely are juicing) it feels like these huge juiced up guys are everywhere and it threatens regular people's masculinity
- dirtyid 7y ago
  https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/31/eating-disorders-in-men-rise-by-70-in-nhs-figures https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/31/eating-disor... Just in general, there have been quite a few articles like this in the last few years. Particularly affects bodybuilding communities trying to get to sub 10% bodyfat. One of the problems is that lifting social media is basically Youtube recommendation on steriods (pun intended), the average lifter that lifts or diets for health doesn't get as much attention as the shredded one lifting big weights, probably on drugs, and if not, have genetics 99.99% of people doesn't and therefore have effectively zero chance of replicating. Edit: another issue is because health culture likes to emphasis on hard work and discipline without acknowledging that 2sigma genetics is precursor to being at the very top. Kids see juiced idols who play the eat well and work hard card (including wholesome figures like Arnold), whose livelihood depends on perpetuating that myth, and telling the truth is tantamount to admitting you committed a crime due to legislation around steriods. The incentives are stacked.

01100011 7y ago

Thank you for saying this, as I was about to post something similar. I came to the valley about 8 months ago, and switched from hiking to lifting because of time constraints. Since getting big, I've felt more and more out of place. I even caught one of my bosses referring to me as a 'bro' when he didn't realize I had dialed in to a meeting. Now, granted, the current crop of engineers I work with are some of the most stereotypically nerdy folks I've ever encountered. Back in San Diego, the engineers I worked with were usually surfers, extreme skiers, advanced cyclists, or some other "alpha" pursuit. The "alpha" engineers in the valley that I've encountered so far... are generally pale, skinny, socially awkward and not very friendly. (Edit: Quotes around 'alpha'. Added 'engineers' after second 'alpha'. I thought I edited out the second usage of 'alpha' because it's really all engineers, but keeping it because it still works.)

leet_thow 7y ago
I think you are likely on to something with this and your comment below. Testosterone has been decreasing steadily in men over the years and sitting in front of a machine all day probably doesn't help. And yes, the "jocks vs nerds" meme likely contributes to the mentality we are sensing.
- raverbashing 7y ago
  > And yes, the "jocks vs nerds" meme likely contributes to the mentality we are sensing. Well, bullying was a thing, and it wasn't the nerds bullying the jocks
  - isoskeles 7y ago
    Sure, but to bring that mentality to adulthood seems ridiculous.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- bigmit37 7y ago