5 ms·

I don't really know what is so special about the school which they decided to base the entire article on. This is just a small sample of the ongoing intellectua

by tuvan 7y ago

I don't really know what is so special about the school which they decided to base the entire article on. This is just a small sample of the ongoing intellectual purge in Turkey. Every university rector is appointed by Erdogan, most professors in STEM, if they haven't fled, avoid any kind of political stance to continue teaching with the hopes of raising intellectuals who will help save the country. This is the university side of the situation, most of the successful students leave the country as soon as they graduate. This migration is on a scale that is record high in countries history, according to some unofficial numbers more than 300.000 young and smart individuals leave the country every year. And I have a problem with this story about its portrayal of Turk-Kurd relation. Turkey is an extension of a multi-national empire. For most people living there, Turkish is not an ethnicity. Most of Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, and more identify themselves as Turks. Portraying Demirtas as a charismatic Kurdish rights activist that wants to unite everyone with peace is despicable journalism. Demirtas is a proud terrorist supporter, he has stated his love and respect for Abdullah Ocalan repeatedly. Abdullah Ocalan is/was the leader of P.K.K., a group that is seen as a terrorist organization by every major intelligence agency of world, he is responsible for the murders of tens of thousands of innocent men, women, children.

tepidandroid 7y ago
It's interesting to note that the NYT publishes this damning piece mere weeks after Erdogan green-lighted Turkey's purchase of Russian S-400 missile systems despite the U.S threatening to kick them out of the F-35 program if they did so. The story appears at a time when an important NATO ally is straying from the pack and leaning instead towards Russia's sphere of influence. My prediction is that we will be seeing more and more mainstream-media pieces like this in the near future, with a healthy sprinkling of words such as "regime", "dictatorship" and “fascism”, and featuring characters like Demirtas as protagonists of the story. They will undoubtedly be portrayed as freedom-fighters leading the fight against oppression. Manufacturing Consent was truly prophetic.
- jayess 7y ago
  NYT has always been a tool of the political establishment.
- antod 7y ago
  or... damning articles about the situation in Turkey have been popping up regularly for 5ish years now. IMO they need to keep popping up frankly. Likewise, Turkey's increasing moves away from NATO towards Russia were always going to reach a threshold where some steplike point was crossed (the F-35 vs S-400 thing) and some public consequences happened. I would've thought if this particular timing was a case of "Manufacturing Consent" rather than just a coincidence, it would've happened earlier. I'm basically of the opinion that it is pretty clear Turkey is heading in the wrong direction, and the powers that be in the west have no reason to manufacture that story.
  - tepidandroid 7y ago
    I can respect your point of view as I think that it's based on some historical realities that cannot be so easily dismissed. However if you look at the history of NYT articles on Turkey and Erdogan going back years [1], there are scant few articles that are critical of Turkey or Erdogan in the way this and other articles in the past weeks and months have been (beginning from the time Turkey began to drift away from its traditional allies). Recent articles have directly called into question the legitimacy of the AKP and Erdogan himself who was elected through a democratic process. > I would've thought if this particular timing was a case of "Manufacturing Consent" rather than just a coincidence, it would've happened earlier. From my point of view, this article and others like it could be interpreted as a very early precursor to forced regime change in Turkey. Time will tell if I am correct. Turkey switching sides presents an existential threat to NATO and the balance of power in region, especially considering the power of Turkey's military and Erdogan's stance on the issue of Israel and Palestine. To me, they could be seen as examples of the mainstream media laying the groundwork -building popular support- for some kind of future, punitive military or economic action. They look suspiciously like the articles printed in the lead-up to the disasters of Libya, Iraq, Syria. Of course, this is all just speculation, based on how the informal American propaganda apparatus (described by Chomsky) has operated in the past. There are many, many problems with Turkey and Erdogan and there is much to answer for, but I'm of the opinion that U.S style regime change is not the solution. I think it behooves us to be extremely critical and even suspicious of any source of information that was designed for mass dissemination and consumption. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/search?query=erdogan&sort=newest https://www.nytimes.com/search?query=erdogan&sort=newest
giardini 7y ago
tuvan says> "Every university rector is appointed by Erdogan, most professors in STEM, if they haven't fled, avoid any kind of political stance to continue teaching with the hopes of raising intellectuals who will help save the country. " Reminds me of pre-war Germany's educational system once the nazis took over. Curiously enough, Erdogan may agree - "Erdoğan cites Hitler's Germany as example of effective government": https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/01/turkish-president-recep-tayyip-erdogan-hitlers-germany-example-effective-government https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/01/turkish-presid...
chr1 7y ago
Turkey is an extension of a multi-national empire which had extreme levels of animosity between its nations, people who identified as non-turks were severely penalized in the past, and to this day allegations of having a non Turk grandparent is something that can be used against politicians. Armenian is still considered an offensive word in Turkey, (as is Turk in Armenia), so portraying Turkey as an idyllic multi-national country is self-deception. Everyone can agree that killing people should be condemned, but it is important to remember that the terrorism of P.K.K. is more similar to American revolution against Britain than to the Al-qaeda terrorism, and it have arised not because some Kurds are despicable people but because there are real unsolved problems still present in Turkey.
- tuvan 7y ago
  Yes, racism exists. Armenian, Greek etc are used as insults by racist people. This doesn’t mean that it is the general state of public. People like Trump use Mexican as an insult, that doesn’t change the fact that there are tons of people with Mexican roots that identify as American and are well respected by the non-racist majority of the nation. I don’t see how PKK is anything like American revolution. PKK isn’t representing any form of official group, they aren’t acting in favor of any specific agenda. There is no ‘real unsolved problem still present in Turkey’ that can justify suicide bombing civilians. They are indirectly funded by USA through military aids to PKKs extension PYD. If you asked what does PKK want to Turkish people, there would be no clear answer, as all PKK ever accomplished was stirring the political climate every single time there was a possibility of political stability in the area.
  - chr1 7y ago
    Do you know of any cases where anyone in America called someone "Mexican" as an insult? Could someone file a lawsuit because he was called "Mexican"? I don't think so, and i don't think USA and Turkey are comparable. PKK and Kurds want to have their own country, that's natural, every nation wants that, and if history have taken a bit different path Turks could be in the same situation. If there was free speech in Turkey and non-racists were really the overwhelming majority, then the people who go into PKK would simply try to hold a referendum for independence (like people in Scotland), and most likely would not get the majority vote (again like Scotland), but unfortunately Turkey still has a long way to go to get there.
booboolayla 7y ago
Turkish mythology refers to the tribes of Central Asia, children in elementary schools are taught about their tribal ancestors' history and how they eventually settled in what is today called Turkey. Being Turkish means having ancestors coming from one of those tribes, so how do Kurds and Greeks fit into this picture? Turkish is most definitely an ethnicity and all Turks are taught about it from an early age.

by tuvan 7y ago

tepidandroid 7y ago

It's interesting to note that the NYT publishes this damning piece mere weeks after Erdogan green-lighted Turkey's purchase of Russian S-400 missile systems despite the U.S threatening to kick them out of the F-35 program if they did so. The story appears at a time when an important NATO ally is straying from the pack and leaning instead towards Russia's sphere of influence. My prediction is that we will be seeing more and more mainstream-media pieces like this in the near future, with a healthy sprinkling of words such as "regime", "dictatorship" and “fascism”, and featuring characters like Demirtas as protagonists of the story. They will undoubtedly be portrayed as freedom-fighters leading the fight against oppression. Manufacturing Consent was truly prophetic.

jayess 7y ago
NYT has always been a tool of the political establishment.
antod 7y ago
or... damning articles about the situation in Turkey have been popping up regularly for 5ish years now. IMO they need to keep popping up frankly. Likewise, Turkey's increasing moves away from NATO towards Russia were always going to reach a threshold where some steplike point was crossed (the F-35 vs S-400 thing) and some public consequences happened. I would've thought if this particular timing was a case of "Manufacturing Consent" rather than just a coincidence, it would've happened earlier. I'm basically of the opinion that it is pretty clear Turkey is heading in the wrong direction, and the powers that be in the west have no reason to manufacture that story.
- tepidandroid 7y ago
  I can respect your point of view as I think that it's based on some historical realities that cannot be so easily dismissed. However if you look at the history of NYT articles on Turkey and Erdogan going back years [1], there are scant few articles that are critical of Turkey or Erdogan in the way this and other articles in the past weeks and months have been (beginning from the time Turkey began to drift away from its traditional allies). Recent articles have directly called into question the legitimacy of the AKP and Erdogan himself who was elected through a democratic process. > I would've thought if this particular timing was a case of "Manufacturing Consent" rather than just a coincidence, it would've happened earlier. From my point of view, this article and others like it could be interpreted as a very early precursor to forced regime change in Turkey. Time will tell if I am correct. Turkey switching sides presents an existential threat to NATO and the balance of power in region, especially considering the power of Turkey's military and Erdogan's stance on the issue of Israel and Palestine. To me, they could be seen as examples of the mainstream media laying the groundwork -building popular support- for some kind of future, punitive military or economic action. They look suspiciously like the articles printed in the lead-up to the disasters of Libya, Iraq, Syria. Of course, this is all just speculation, based on how the informal American propaganda apparatus (described by Chomsky) has operated in the past. There are many, many problems with Turkey and Erdogan and there is much to answer for, but I'm of the opinion that U.S style regime change is not the solution. I think it behooves us to be extremely critical and even suspicious of any source of information that was designed for mass dissemination and consumption. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/search?query=erdogan&sort=newest https://www.nytimes.com/search?query=erdogan&sort=newest

giardini 7y ago

tuvan says> "Every university rector is appointed by Erdogan, most professors in STEM, if they haven't fled, avoid any kind of political stance to continue teaching with the hopes of raising intellectuals who will help save the country. " Reminds me of pre-war Germany's educational system once the nazis took over. Curiously enough, Erdogan may agree - "Erdoğan cites Hitler's Germany as example of effective government": https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/01/turkish-president-recep-tayyip-erdogan-hitlers-germany-example-effective-government https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/01/turkish-presid...

chr1 7y ago

Turkey is an extension of a multi-national empire which had extreme levels of animosity between its nations, people who identified as non-turks were severely penalized in the past, and to this day allegations of having a non Turk grandparent is something that can be used against politicians. Armenian is still considered an offensive word in Turkey, (as is Turk in Armenia), so portraying Turkey as an idyllic multi-national country is self-deception. Everyone can agree that killing people should be condemned, but it is important to remember that the terrorism of P.K.K. is more similar to American revolution against Britain than to the Al-qaeda terrorism, and it have arised not because some Kurds are despicable people but because there are real unsolved problems still present in Turkey.

tuvan 7y ago
Yes, racism exists. Armenian, Greek etc are used as insults by racist people. This doesn’t mean that it is the general state of public. People like Trump use Mexican as an insult, that doesn’t change the fact that there are tons of people with Mexican roots that identify as American and are well respected by the non-racist majority of the nation. I don’t see how PKK is anything like American revolution. PKK isn’t representing any form of official group, they aren’t acting in favor of any specific agenda. There is no ‘real unsolved problem still present in Turkey’ that can justify suicide bombing civilians. They are indirectly funded by USA through military aids to PKKs extension PYD. If you asked what does PKK want to Turkish people, there would be no clear answer, as all PKK ever accomplished was stirring the political climate every single time there was a possibility of political stability in the area.
- chr1 7y ago
  Do you know of any cases where anyone in America called someone "Mexican" as an insult? Could someone file a lawsuit because he was called "Mexican"? I don't think so, and i don't think USA and Turkey are comparable. PKK and Kurds want to have their own country, that's natural, every nation wants that, and if history have taken a bit different path Turks could be in the same situation. If there was free speech in Turkey and non-racists were really the overwhelming majority, then the people who go into PKK would simply try to hold a referendum for independence (like people in Scotland), and most likely would not get the majority vote (again like Scotland), but unfortunately Turkey still has a long way to go to get there.

booboolayla 7y ago

Turkish mythology refers to the tribes of Central Asia, children in elementary schools are taught about their tribal ancestors' history and how they eventually settled in what is today called Turkey. Being Turkish means having ancestors coming from one of those tribes, so how do Kurds and Greeks fit into this picture? Turkish is most definitely an ethnicity and all Turks are taught about it from an early age.