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Turkey's GDP peaked at $950 billion in 2013, just before Erdogan became president. By 2017, it had slid to $850 billion, and after the intellectual purges, slid

Turkey's GDP peaked at $950 billion in 2013, just before Erdogan became president. By 2017, it had slid to $850 billion, and after the intellectual purges, slid to just $766 billion in 2018. [1] People may argue from ideology for or against politics like these, but I can think of no clearer indication of these policies' failure than the impoverishing of a country. [1]: https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp

dmitriid 7y ago
> Turkey's GDP peaked at $950 billion in 2013, just before Erdogan became president. By 2017, it had slid to $850 billion Do you realise that Erdogan has been in power since 2001? So if economic downturn is his achievement, then the economic growth is his achievement, too.
- anticensor 7y ago
  He had significant checks and balances when he was the prime minister. Many of them are removed, nearly half of the executive powers lie upon the president, without any balance, currently. This is thanks to "presidential order"s (Cumhurbaşkanı Kararı), which is separate from "presidential decree"s (Cumhurbaşkanlığı Kararnamesi), which can be struck by the constitutional court.
  - dmitriid 7y ago
    > Many of them are removed, nearly half of the executive powers lie upon the president, That I know, too. And that happened (as in many authoritarian states) so that he could maintain the illusion of legitimacy: "hey look, I'm not a prime-minister forever, I am now president". But do give Erdogan some credit. He is not stupid. And it's disingenuous and deeply simplistic to paint what happened in Turkey as "Erdogan became President in 2013, look Turkey immediately slid into recession because of that". "Checks and balances" alone cannot explain Turkey's growth prior to 2013.
devmunchies 7y ago
GDP is not a north star metric. GDP in the US is high and we have more suicides than ever. Many authoritarian (or especially populist) governments KNOW they will lower the GDP because by limiting low-wage labor immigration or focusing on nurturing a native culture or preserving the environment and not buying into a soulless consumerism/globalization they are creating a GDP cap. "growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell" --edward abbey (I don't know anything about what's happening in Turkey, I just don't believe in GDP as a metric to chase)
- pergadad 7y ago
  It is incredibly hard to shrink the GDP though. That's what Erdogan managed nonetheless - installed a kleptocratic oligarchy under the guise of religious conservatism. All outside investment vanished and national players became beholden to the gov rather than to meaningful investment. Unemployment is high, as are food prices, despite super cheap labour migration from Syria (essentially used as slaves) and massive cash infusions by the EU.
- Excel_Wizard 7y ago
  Would you say that you agree with GP's point though? It's not as if there are other things that are getting better in Turkey to counterbalance this particular measure.
- p1necone 7y ago
  I'd like some kind of standard metric that adjusts gdp to spending power on food, housing etc, and weights based on standard deviation amongst the populace (lower being better). Unadjusted gdp seems like an entirely pointless metric when as you point out you can look at places like the USA where despite having high gdp there's still widespread poverty.
  - abakker 7y ago
    The metric you are looking for is Purchasing Power Parity - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
anticensor 7y ago
Erdoğan disrupted the economy, despite claiming he was an economist by education. His son-in-law has become the finance minister and furthered the disruption.
mda 7y ago
Eh, Erdogan is in power since 2002 elections, GDP was 232B at the time. Your comment doesn't make much sense.
99052882514569 7y ago
Meh, I'm no fan of Erdogan, but statistics like that should be used with caution. This precipitous decline does not show what you imply it shows. This is what happens when your currency tanks, numbers like "GDP in USD" get all out of whack. Compare and contrast with GDP per capita PPP[1] [1] https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp-per-capita-ppp https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp-per-capita-ppp
- doctorpangloss 7y ago
  Engineers have a hard time disliking someone for emotional reasons though. Like it’s not enough that Erdogan is a bad guy, it has to be about numbers.
  - switch007 7y ago
    I think that’s a sweeping generalisation. His crimes are sufficient enough for me.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    Numbers tend to lie less than emotional appeals, especially given recent history of shouting "bad guys" as a pretext to ruin nations.
  - 99052882514569 7y ago
    It is absolutely (not just, but also) about numbers, just not nominal GDP in USD.
- ozgune 7y ago
  Also, quick clarification note related to the GDP numbers. Erdogan has been Turkey's Prime Minister since 2003 (head of the executive branch). In 2014, Erdogan was elected as President. In 2017, Turkey went through a constitutional referendum that made the President head of the executive branch. I'm noting this because much of Erdogan's popularity is rooted in Turkey's GDP growth between 2003-2013.
- csomar 7y ago
  > This is what happens when your currency tanks, numbers like "GDP in USD" get all out of whack. Your currency tanking is worse than having the GDP going down.
cat199 7y ago
No fan of Erdogan, and dont doubt that his policies have impacted investment to Turkey, but this ignores: - greek debt crisis - brexit - recent market turmoil - syrian conflict all of which have huge impact to Turkish economy as well.
JumpCrisscross 7y ago
Erdogan also "said he opposes high rates because they stoke inflation - a view that contradicts economic theory" [1]. It seems the exodus of intellectuals had a secondary effect in de-intellectualising his policy. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/20/reuters-america-update-1-erdogan-pledges-return-to-low-interest-rates-in-turkey.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/20/reuters-america-update-1-erd...
vernie 7y ago
Trust me, I'm no Erdogan fan but allow me to defend him for a few paragraphs...

dmitriid 7y ago

> Turkey's GDP peaked at $950 billion in 2013, just before Erdogan became president. By 2017, it had slid to $850 billion Do you realise that Erdogan has been in power since 2001? So if economic downturn is his achievement, then the economic growth is his achievement, too.

anticensor 7y ago
He had significant checks and balances when he was the prime minister. Many of them are removed, nearly half of the executive powers lie upon the president, without any balance, currently. This is thanks to "presidential order"s (Cumhurbaşkanı Kararı), which is separate from "presidential decree"s (Cumhurbaşkanlığı Kararnamesi), which can be struck by the constitutional court.
- dmitriid 7y ago
  > Many of them are removed, nearly half of the executive powers lie upon the president, That I know, too. And that happened (as in many authoritarian states) so that he could maintain the illusion of legitimacy: "hey look, I'm not a prime-minister forever, I am now president". But do give Erdogan some credit. He is not stupid. And it's disingenuous and deeply simplistic to paint what happened in Turkey as "Erdogan became President in 2013, look Turkey immediately slid into recession because of that". "Checks and balances" alone cannot explain Turkey's growth prior to 2013.

devmunchies 7y ago

GDP is not a north star metric. GDP in the US is high and we have more suicides than ever. Many authoritarian (or especially populist) governments KNOW they will lower the GDP because by limiting low-wage labor immigration or focusing on nurturing a native culture or preserving the environment and not buying into a soulless consumerism/globalization they are creating a GDP cap. "growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell" --edward abbey (I don't know anything about what's happening in Turkey, I just don't believe in GDP as a metric to chase)

pergadad 7y ago
It is incredibly hard to shrink the GDP though. That's what Erdogan managed nonetheless - installed a kleptocratic oligarchy under the guise of religious conservatism. All outside investment vanished and national players became beholden to the gov rather than to meaningful investment. Unemployment is high, as are food prices, despite super cheap labour migration from Syria (essentially used as slaves) and massive cash infusions by the EU.
Excel_Wizard 7y ago
Would you say that you agree with GP's point though? It's not as if there are other things that are getting better in Turkey to counterbalance this particular measure.
p1necone 7y ago
I'd like some kind of standard metric that adjusts gdp to spending power on food, housing etc, and weights based on standard deviation amongst the populace (lower being better). Unadjusted gdp seems like an entirely pointless metric when as you point out you can look at places like the USA where despite having high gdp there's still widespread poverty.
- abakker 7y ago
  The metric you are looking for is Purchasing Power Parity - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

anticensor 7y ago

Erdoğan disrupted the economy, despite claiming he was an economist by education. His son-in-law has become the finance minister and furthered the disruption.

mda 7y ago

Eh, Erdogan is in power since 2002 elections, GDP was 232B at the time. Your comment doesn't make much sense.

99052882514569 7y ago

Meh, I'm no fan of Erdogan, but statistics like that should be used with caution. This precipitous decline does not show what you imply it shows. This is what happens when your currency tanks, numbers like "GDP in USD" get all out of whack. Compare and contrast with GDP per capita PPP[1] [1] https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp-per-capita-ppp https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp-per-capita-ppp

doctorpangloss 7y ago
Engineers have a hard time disliking someone for emotional reasons though. Like it’s not enough that Erdogan is a bad guy, it has to be about numbers.
- switch007 7y ago
  I think that’s a sweeping generalisation. His crimes are sufficient enough for me.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Numbers tend to lie less than emotional appeals, especially given recent history of shouting "bad guys" as a pretext to ruin nations.
- 99052882514569 7y ago
  It is absolutely (not just, but also) about numbers, just not nominal GDP in USD.
ozgune 7y ago
Also, quick clarification note related to the GDP numbers. Erdogan has been Turkey's Prime Minister since 2003 (head of the executive branch). In 2014, Erdogan was elected as President. In 2017, Turkey went through a constitutional referendum that made the President head of the executive branch. I'm noting this because much of Erdogan's popularity is rooted in Turkey's GDP growth between 2003-2013.
csomar 7y ago
> This is what happens when your currency tanks, numbers like "GDP in USD" get all out of whack. Your currency tanking is worse than having the GDP going down.

cat199 7y ago

No fan of Erdogan, and dont doubt that his policies have impacted investment to Turkey, but this ignores: - greek debt crisis - brexit - recent market turmoil - syrian conflict all of which have huge impact to Turkish economy as well.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

Erdogan also "said he opposes high rates because they stoke inflation - a view that contradicts economic theory" [1]. It seems the exodus of intellectuals had a secondary effect in de-intellectualising his policy. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/20/reuters-america-update-1-erdogan-pledges-return-to-low-interest-rates-in-turkey.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/20/reuters-america-update-1-erd...

vernie 7y ago

Trust me, I'm no Erdogan fan but allow me to defend him for a few paragraphs...