5 ms·
I more or less agree with you re Chomsky. I'll take a couple of examples of where Chomsky and the left wing position (that I've read) is strange. (Any reader m
by berntb 16y ago
I more or less agree with you re Chomsky.
I'll take a couple of examples of where Chomsky and the left wing position (that I've read) is strange. (Any reader might want to skip to "And so on.")
The condemnations of US foreign policy is weird. Consider that countries (including democracies) implement realpolitik. And all (I know of) lie about it.
It is ridiculous to condemn a group (US) for playing a game where their lives are at stake and acting like the other players. Instead, note that the game is bad -- and how it could be changed (implement more democracies).
For a second example, I'll take Israel. I'll compare it to Bangladesh.
Even with an extreme description of Israel in 1948, the treatment of Hindus in Bangladesh has been much worse for much longer (the Hindus are also citizens, not in the middle of a civil war without an existing country. Etc).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vested_Property_Act_%28Bangladesh%29#Professor_Barkat.27s_seminal_work http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vested_Property_Act_%28Banglade...
No one cares! (Well, the Hindus driven away care. And the ones lynching them.)
Israel can be condemned on some issues (which is natural, the country is under an existential threat). But to demonize only one side in a conflict when the other side arguably is factors of ten worse?! (Even with antisemitism in their state controlled/censured media!)
And so on.
On the other hand, Chomsky is for me like vim. People whose intellect I respect use vim instead of Emacs. Hence, there should be something in Chomsky.
What speaks against that argument is that even the intelligent followers tend to be idealists and believers regarding their political opinions. (-: Like, well, me and Emacs. :-)
Edit: I should note that I have to run some errands now and probably won't read answers until this evening.
- babeKnuth 16y agohi berntb, re: US foreign policy, israel, bangladesh, etc. see the vids i posted elsewhere in this thread here http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2051777 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2051777 you're right about all your comments and questions the main issue of confusion i find is that the conversation is all about "chomsky" or "chomsky's hidden intentions", rather than the actual facts/policies it's like wikileaks/assange deja-vu all over again.... full disclosure: i use emacs (with vimpulse). and i also try to use vim whenever possible as well. and if you want your mind blown by vim: http://blog.extracheese.org/2010/11/screencast-custom-vim-refactorings.html http://blog.extracheese.org/2010/11/screencast-custom-vim-re...
- berntb 16y agoNo time for videos, I'll try to remember to check after New Year. Maybe even the vim reference. :-) I think it is quite clear, really. We seem to agree on that Chomsky isn't arguing honestly. We can end there, since Chomsky's exact motivation for writing propaganda isn't that interesting. (And re WikiLeaks, see this fascionating little factoid: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/dec/17/wikileaks-israel-shamir-russia-scandinavia http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/dec... )
- babeKnuth 16y agoha. i'm actually positing the opposite. :) chomsky is being pretty honest, while the interviewers (etc.) and the people (mis)characterizing him are being as disingenuous as one can possibly be. again, refer to the vids (the 3rd part is most relevant, plus it's only 7 mins long). would explain MANY of your questions and comments.
- berntb 16y agoMy point was that all countries use realpolitik and lie about it, even if democracies are nicer when it doesn't cost anything etc. (Wartime, including the cold war, tends to get moral considerations thrown out.) It is propaganda to condemn a player morally for acting like everyone else in a game where survival literally is at stake. At a minimum you should talk carefully about the implications. Also, I noted it is easy to give examples where other countries are much worse, without Chomsky or anyone else caring. It seems like propaganda. You wrote that you had no problem with that, you wrote in anothe comment that you are no fan of Chomsky -- and now you are the "opposite"?? Out the door again.
- babeKnuth 16y agohi berntb, you say "Also, I noted it is easy to give examples where other countries are much worse, without Chomsky or anyone else caring". if you watch the videos i mentioned you will get the reply you are looking for to this question and see that this claim is completely false. thus also false is the claim of propaganda. all i can say is "watch the vids", and until you do there is no point in constantly repeating the above talking point since it's CLEARLY addressed and refuted in the vids mentioned. again, now you're getting into the "hidden intentions" thing which is completely irrelevant with regards to my not being a fan of chomsky. all i can say is that the world is a complex place, some things i agree with and some things i disagree with. for me to say i'm a "fan" of chomsky is probably as (in)valid as saying that i'm "not a fan" of chomsky.