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> Being able to embed screenshots is awesome. Being able to use color, or bold, or italics, makes a difference in communication. Yet, you cannot do any of that
by u801e 7y ago
> Being able to embed screenshots is awesome. Being able to use color, or bold, or italics, makes a difference in communication.
Yet, you cannot do any of that on HN (other than a limited case like italic). But, we can communicate just fine without those features.
I suppose it's really a difference of a read once message versus having a discussion. In a read once message, you can format it like you describe. That's how most blogs and web pages work. But if you want to have a discussion, then plain text with very limited markup works best since it minimizes the required vertical scrolling and it allows you to see the overall discussion since you can view more messages in the given screen space.
- neuronic 7y agoCommunicating just fine is not the same as communicating at optimum. In the analog world, you could just hand over a white, plaintext birthday card. Or you could give one with a motive, color, some doodles and maybe a memorable photograph attached. Which one is more memorable? "It's used by marketing." is not an arguments against it. We have sophisticated spam filters. Update your rules then.
- zepolen 7y agoGo and visit a forum where embedded images are allowed and tell me that there is any sort of "optimum" discussion over there. In the end what happens is people use text overlays in the IMAGES in order to reply to each other. Since you edited your response to mention the birthday card: Yea - on the one hand you can leave a boring "Happy Birthday" message with lots of glitter to make it memorable. Or you can make the message memorable.
- SifJar 7y agoAn internet forum (presumably we're referring to a public forum here) is a very different communication medium than email (especially when used in a professional context)
- u801e 7y ago> An internet forum (presumably we're referring to a public forum here) is a very different communication medium than email Not really. Take a look at any email discussion like the Linux kernel mailing list or the git mailing list. Same thing with newsgroups (usenet).
- jamespo 7y agoNewsgroups aren't exactly vibrant any more, sadly.
- Brometheus 7y agoYes really. Take a look at the mails I use to discuss things with my customers.
- arbitrage 7y ago> Same thing with newsgroups (usenet). good lord, how old are you?
- darkpuma 7y agoI was participating in rec.games.roguelike.development until 2011 or so. Some of those communities lasted a lot longer than most would expect.
- darkpuma 7y agoI've seen professionally-oriented PHP forums and they are no better than any casual-interest oriented PHP forum. Tons of visual clutter with all kinds of rectangles nested inside each other all over the screen with little apparent purpose for any of them. Join dates of users are given higher visual precedence to the date a comment was made (why is the join date of a user even visible on a discussion page at all?? That's pointless clutter!) 90% of users attaching signatures to every comment they leave with the signature body being longer than whatever remark they left, and often being filled with shitty animated gifs that look like they were stolen from somebody's geocities page. It's a trash medium. Fundamentally flawed. Trying to fix typical PHP forums is like trying to polish a turd.
- shriek 7y agoI'd argue that that's a shortcoming of the platform and not the medium in that context. Having the ability and abusing it are two completely different things.
- athenot 7y agoSome forums actually work a lot better WITH embedded images. To pick just one example[1]: a lawn forum where people will try to ask a question, or share an experience, and go back and forth trying to describe the details. A photo cuts that pain out and enriches the conversation. [1] https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11802 https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11802
- gowld 7y agoThat's a great example because besides the excellent use of pictures, it features terrible use of text -- the subject is "Going reel low"
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- jolmg 7y ago> In the end what happens is people use text overlays in the IMAGES in order to reply to each other. Oh my god. At my work, HR likes their email super-formatted to a degree that's not portably achievable with even hand-written HTML. The solution someone once came up with? Their email consists of a single embedded image the size of a typical monitor. All text, all information is in that image. They also have a requirement for everyone to use their standard format for "professional" signatures in their own mail. Of course, those are also embedded images. In a discussion, with each reply of each person, the corresponding signature image is included. I wish I could tell them that email only allows for plain text, but of course that's not the case.
- zhte415 7y agoGiven it's HR, could a case not be made for accessibility which an embedded image doesn't allow.. they might be responsive if talking in HR terms and priorities.
- dwild 7y ago> In the end what happens is people use text overlays in the IMAGES in order to reply to each other. That doesn't sound optimum use of image at all. > Or you can make the message memorable. And use image that make it even more memorable at the same time. Text and images are tools, both can be misused, but that doesn't means that they are bad. Remember SMS text? Works for sure, clearly not optimal, yet text is pretty good to make message memorable. I can explain in a thousand word an issue on a page, but you can also just share a screenshot. That's an optimum use of images. Sure you could just write "see screenshot #1", "see screenshot #2", etc.. but I'm pretty sure you'll agree that it's not optimum.
- zepolen 7y agoOptimum for me would be links along with client integration to open said links inline. Links for example in a plaintext email are clickable - not because of HTML, but client integration. The same can be done on image links. That way the big screenshots don't destroy the flow of text like in http://example.jpg http://example.jpg [+] (open inline) and instead information is condensed and digested in the most optimum way possible.
- gowld 7y agoRebuttal: Yahoo! Answers is text only. It's not text or images that make forum content good or bad or memorable. It's good people doing good work. And different people work well in different media. Saying that text is the only legitimate form of media is both ignorant and disrespectful.
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- u801e 7y agoI would say that the birthday card example is a read once message example, and not something that's going to be discussed at length like a patch on a development mailing list.
- Dayshine 7y ago>Yet, you cannot do any of that on HN (other than a limited case like italic). But, we can communicate just fine without those features. Can we? Comments can't have tables, so you almost never see any actually tabular data like statistics. I frequently see people misstating copied across data, or getting confused by things that would be simple in a table. Quoting from the article is very difficult, as laws and guidance often use formatting despite being very simple documents. I've run into this a few times when trying to quote GDPR guidance, and people very often misunderstand quotes. People frequently struggle making lists, or having problems with ambiguity about which point a comment is replying to. Code snippets just don't work on mobile. > then plain text with very limited markup works best since it minimizes the required vertical scrolling and it allows you to see the overall discussion Sure, if your discussion is short and shallow point-scoring! For in-depth discussion headings or any structure at all is really important.
- u801e 7y ago> Comments can't have tables, so you almost never see any actually tabular data like statistics. I frequently see people misstating copied across data, or getting confused by things that would be simple in a table. It can be done in plain text, but I don't commonly see it. For example: Column 1 Column 2 first second third fourth > Quoting from the article is very difficult, as laws and guidance often use formatting despite being very simple documents. I've run into this a few times when trying to quote GDPR guidance, and people very often misunderstand quotes. I have quoted statutes from federal and state laws numerous times as part of a discussions where copying and pasting the text into a plain text format works. For example, a bullet point becomes an asterisk. > People frequently struggle making lists, or having problems with ambiguity about which point a comment is replying to. I think it's a lack of convention. I spent a lot of time on email lists, forums and newsgroups and have seen various conventions, but most people didn't struggle to make lists. The most common convention was just to use numbering or asterisks to indicate items in a list: * item 1 * item 2 3. item 3 4. item 4 > Code snippets just don't work on mobile. Code is one type of text that shouldn't be soft-wrapped, but the lines are frequently too long to render without wrapping on a mobile. > Sure, if your discussion is short and shallow point-scoring Not all online discussions are like that. For example, look at the mailing lists for the Linux kernel and git. I've also seen many substantial discussions on sites like this and reddit. In the past, I've learned a lot from newsgroups (usenet).
- astrea 7y ago> But, we can communicate just fine without those features. Surely professional communication has a different use case and requirements than random musings on an internet forum.
- everdrive 7y agoMy experience has been that some professionals are not actually very good at communicating in the first place. They won't read a detailed email, and instead prefer body language and rapport to substance. Perhaps the need for pictures and fonts in an email is related to this problem.
- cortesoft 7y agoAnd we got along 'just fine' before computers were invented. Should we stop all progress because we don't really 'need' any new stuff we are inventing?
- jimnotgym 7y agoI don't see the point of email, I can communicate just fine by letter, by radio, by semaphore, by morse code (actually I suck at Morse).
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 7y agoFormat is a kind of moderation and guidance. With email, anything goes, but it's usually direct communication, where the rules are organically decided between the participants. With a zillion participants, that can't happen, so limiting the options is useful.
- ubermonkey 7y ago>Yet, you cannot do any of that on HN (other than a limited case like italic). But, we can communicate just fine without those features. And a message board is absolutely NOT email, so this is totally irrelevant.