4 ms·

Yes, I can't believe it but I'm actually sympathizing with the airline. He booked fake reservations under fake names in case someone might want to travel with

Yes, I can't believe it but I'm actually sympathizing with the airline. He booked fake reservations under fake names in case someone might want to travel with him. The fact no one at the airline asked him to stop committing fraud until 2004 does not lessen the fact he was, in fact, defrauding the airline out of thousands of dollars. If he had just used the tickets as intended he'd probably still have his pass.

beaker52 7y ago
To be fair to the guy, he wasn't defrauding the airline. He bought lifetime tickets. Any normally purchased ticket that isn't flown wouldn't be considered defrauding because you associate it with ongoing profit. The fact this guy paid an at-the-time-inflated $250k for a lifetime ticket should entitle him to book his tickets, as a portion of his lifetime ticket. The fact that, in hindsight, the airline is making a loss at this price, whether he flies or not, is not his fault.
- alwayseasy 7y ago
  Airlines don't sell a seat they sell the transportation between 2 airports (see their T&C's) to an individual. However ff you want an extra seat for extra-room there is a procedure (usually use "XS" as your middle name or ExtraSeat as a first name). He didn't do that, he created fake identities...
  - matthewdgreen 7y ago
    The question is whether he was advised to do so by the representatives of the airline.
- ordinaryperson 7y ago
  He made up fake identities and booked tickets under their names in case someone might want to travel with him. Those empty seats, which most of the time he probably didn't even think would be used, cost the airline real money. Yes, he had the right to reserve an extra seat but doing so under false pretenses is, in fact, fraud. Despite what the estimable Prof. Green says in other comments it doesn't matter what airline employees encouraged him to do: it's up to you to know the terms of your agreement. I am disgusted by the fact that I am actually defending airlines but again, if this guy wanted to preserve his cushy benefit he should have abided by the terms of his agreement.
mxcrossb 7y ago
He payed 250k for the pass, and 150k for the companion feature. I think the empty seats were fair, considering it nearly cost him double. AA just practiced this basic rule: make sure your customer/partner/citizens are always breaking some rule, so you can always get out of any deal.
- ordinaryperson 7y ago
  The empty seats cost the airlines many thousands of dollars and most of the time he didn't even intend to use them. I know airlines and cable companies are arguably the most vicious, anti-customer monopolists in America and it's hard to have sympathy for them, but was what this guy did against the rules? How can you argue creating fake identities and reserving seats for non-existing passengers is not? As I mention in another comment, a contract is not a suicide pact. If you want your business partner to honor the terms of your agreement don't cost them tens of thousands of dollars unnecessarily. 99% of the time I am disgusted by airlines' behavior but in this case...passenger was at fault, IMO.
  - listenallyall 7y ago
    >> was what this guy did against the rules? How can you argue creating fake identities and reserving seats for non-existing passengers is not? Because prior to purchasing the pass, he asked about having a non-human companion and AA offered up Yo-Yo Ma and his cello in a separate, reserved seat as an acceptable example. Because the CEO had written a personal letter thanking Mr. Rothstein and promising to continuing to honor the program. Because every non-human reservation he made was accepted and booked by an AA reservation agent -- not an internet booking or 3rd party travel agent.
    - ordinaryperson 7y ago
      Wait, do I understand your argument correctly? Fraud is acceptable because an AA reservation agent didn't realize the identity of the passenger was fake? If I commit fraud against you, and you don't know it's fraud, it's your fault for you not immediately detecting it? He was warned in 2004 against fake people, so he started using friends' names -- people who also didn't fly. He was terminated in 2008 after continuing to commit fraud, despite being warned.
matthewdgreen 7y ago
The definition of fraud is: "an intentional misrepresentation of material existing fact made by one person to another with knowledge of its falsity and for the purpose of inducing the other person to act, and upon which the other person relies with resulting injury or damage." It seems that the airline (1) had full knowledge that these reservations were being made for a specific purpose, and (2) they had advised him to make this sort of reservation with full knowledge of its purpose, and (3) if they, at some point expressed a desire that the previously-allowed/recommended behavior should change, and it did subsequently change, and (4) they did not terminate the contract at any time when this "fraud" was actually occurring". I don't know all the details of the case, but based on this information I'm hard-pressed to accept the conclusion that it's fraud. Or to put it differently: if I sign a contract with you that allows me to break the contract if (and only if) you commit fraud, and then I knowingly assist you in committing behavior that (unbeknownst to you) I will later claim is fraud, and then use this alleged fraud as an excuse to break the contract -- this is not a pattern of behavior that anyone should be cheering for.
- ordinaryperson 7y ago
  Wait, Matthew D. Green? The famous cryptographer? If a bank teller encourages me to rob the bank he works at, it doesn't mitigate the fact I robbed the bank. It doesn't give green lights to customers to rob banks. I'd also encourage you to take a less anodyne view of contracts as immutable suicide pacts and more like a business arrangement that's beneficial to both parties. If the terms become too onerous companies aren't going to go bankrupt honoring them. Besides, if he didn't commit fraud, why didn't the courts side with him? And using legal loopholes to exit unfavorable contracts happens all the time in the real world, it's not some travesty of justice. Sounds like this guy got millions' worth of value for the 400K he spent, he should be happy he got what he did. BTW love your work! Big fan.
  - listenallyall 7y ago
    >> If the terms become too onerous companies aren't going to go bankrupt honoring them. Ironically, American Airlines didn't honor the contract, and did go bankrupt.

beaker52 7y ago

To be fair to the guy, he wasn't defrauding the airline. He bought lifetime tickets. Any normally purchased ticket that isn't flown wouldn't be considered defrauding because you associate it with ongoing profit. The fact this guy paid an at-the-time-inflated $250k for a lifetime ticket should entitle him to book his tickets, as a portion of his lifetime ticket. The fact that, in hindsight, the airline is making a loss at this price, whether he flies or not, is not his fault.

alwayseasy 7y ago
Airlines don't sell a seat they sell the transportation between 2 airports (see their T&C's) to an individual. However ff you want an extra seat for extra-room there is a procedure (usually use "XS" as your middle name or ExtraSeat as a first name). He didn't do that, he created fake identities...
- matthewdgreen 7y ago
  The question is whether he was advised to do so by the representatives of the airline.
ordinaryperson 7y ago
He made up fake identities and booked tickets under their names in case someone might want to travel with him. Those empty seats, which most of the time he probably didn't even think would be used, cost the airline real money. Yes, he had the right to reserve an extra seat but doing so under false pretenses is, in fact, fraud. Despite what the estimable Prof. Green says in other comments it doesn't matter what airline employees encouraged him to do: it's up to you to know the terms of your agreement. I am disgusted by the fact that I am actually defending airlines but again, if this guy wanted to preserve his cushy benefit he should have abided by the terms of his agreement.

mxcrossb 7y ago

He payed 250k for the pass, and 150k for the companion feature. I think the empty seats were fair, considering it nearly cost him double. AA just practiced this basic rule: make sure your customer/partner/citizens are always breaking some rule, so you can always get out of any deal.

ordinaryperson 7y ago
The empty seats cost the airlines many thousands of dollars and most of the time he didn't even intend to use them. I know airlines and cable companies are arguably the most vicious, anti-customer monopolists in America and it's hard to have sympathy for them, but was what this guy did against the rules? How can you argue creating fake identities and reserving seats for non-existing passengers is not? As I mention in another comment, a contract is not a suicide pact. If you want your business partner to honor the terms of your agreement don't cost them tens of thousands of dollars unnecessarily. 99% of the time I am disgusted by airlines' behavior but in this case...passenger was at fault, IMO.
- listenallyall 7y ago
  >> was what this guy did against the rules? How can you argue creating fake identities and reserving seats for non-existing passengers is not? Because prior to purchasing the pass, he asked about having a non-human companion and AA offered up Yo-Yo Ma and his cello in a separate, reserved seat as an acceptable example. Because the CEO had written a personal letter thanking Mr. Rothstein and promising to continuing to honor the program. Because every non-human reservation he made was accepted and booked by an AA reservation agent -- not an internet booking or 3rd party travel agent.
  - ordinaryperson 7y ago
    Wait, do I understand your argument correctly? Fraud is acceptable because an AA reservation agent didn't realize the identity of the passenger was fake? If I commit fraud against you, and you don't know it's fraud, it's your fault for you not immediately detecting it? He was warned in 2004 against fake people, so he started using friends' names -- people who also didn't fly. He was terminated in 2008 after continuing to commit fraud, despite being warned.

matthewdgreen 7y ago

The definition of fraud is: "an intentional misrepresentation of material existing fact made by one person to another with knowledge of its falsity and for the purpose of inducing the other person to act, and upon which the other person relies with resulting injury or damage." It seems that the airline (1) had full knowledge that these reservations were being made for a specific purpose, and (2) they had advised him to make this sort of reservation with full knowledge of its purpose, and (3) if they, at some point expressed a desire that the previously-allowed/recommended behavior should change, and it did subsequently change, and (4) they did not terminate the contract at any time when this "fraud" was actually occurring". I don't know all the details of the case, but based on this information I'm hard-pressed to accept the conclusion that it's fraud. Or to put it differently: if I sign a contract with you that allows me to break the contract if (and only if) you commit fraud, and then I knowingly assist you in committing behavior that (unbeknownst to you) I will later claim is fraud, and then use this alleged fraud as an excuse to break the contract -- this is not a pattern of behavior that anyone should be cheering for.

ordinaryperson 7y ago
Wait, Matthew D. Green? The famous cryptographer? If a bank teller encourages me to rob the bank he works at, it doesn't mitigate the fact I robbed the bank. It doesn't give green lights to customers to rob banks. I'd also encourage you to take a less anodyne view of contracts as immutable suicide pacts and more like a business arrangement that's beneficial to both parties. If the terms become too onerous companies aren't going to go bankrupt honoring them. Besides, if he didn't commit fraud, why didn't the courts side with him? And using legal loopholes to exit unfavorable contracts happens all the time in the real world, it's not some travesty of justice. Sounds like this guy got millions' worth of value for the 400K he spent, he should be happy he got what he did. BTW love your work! Big fan.
- listenallyall 7y ago
  >> If the terms become too onerous companies aren't going to go bankrupt honoring them. Ironically, American Airlines didn't honor the contract, and did go bankrupt.